Author Topic: Google facing multiple lawsuits  (Read 49418 times)

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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #120 on: September 23, 2017, 09:08:40 pm »
Direct question Lana: Were Google in court because they were allegedly systematically underpaying their female employees prior to sacking the author of the memo? Yes or no.

Direct question number two: Could the memo negatively affect Google's court cases, plural, involving said allegation that they were systematically underpaying their female employees? Yes or no.

Direct question three: Would it have been prudent for Google not to have sacked the author of the memo in the context of the company being involved in court cases about gender discrimination? Yes or no and why?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 12:51:48 am by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #121 on: September 24, 2017, 07:56:05 pm »
You could have very well looked it up, Lana.

You know, Google it.

I already knew about it. But Tolpuddle didn't give any indication that he was talking about it. His phrasing made it seem like he was talking about the women's lawsuit.

Direct question Lana: Were Google in court because they were allegedly systematically underpaying their female employees prior to sacking the author of the memo? Yes or no.

Direct question number two: Could the memo negatively affect Google's court cases, plural, involving said allegation that they were systematically underpaying their female employees? Yes or no.

Direct question three: Would it have been prudent for Google not to have sacked the author of the memo in the context of the company being involved in court cases about gender discrimination? Yes or no and why?

In order, yes, no, and no.
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Online ironbite

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #122 on: September 24, 2017, 08:12:53 pm »
Wow...you're dumber then I thought if you think 2 and 3.

Ironbite-like seriously you have no idea how that could affect a court case.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #123 on: September 24, 2017, 08:25:07 pm »
Wow...you're dumber then I thought if you think 2 and 3.

Ironbite-like seriously you have no idea how that could affect a court case.

How so? Fundamentally, the memo give suggestions regarding how to be more inclusive to women.

Besides, Tolpuddle specifically asked for yes or no answers, so he left me no room for nuance.
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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #124 on: September 24, 2017, 08:41:33 pm »
Question 3 was giving you room to show your work btw.

Ironbite-a fact you didn't seem to see.

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #125 on: September 24, 2017, 09:32:52 pm »
Question 3 was giving you room to show your work btw.

Ironbite-a fact you didn't seem to see.

Nope, he was restricting me to yes or no answers. Ignore what he explicitly stated, and read the subtext that I can't prove even exists.
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Offline Svata

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #126 on: September 24, 2017, 09:35:00 pm »
Nope, he was restricting me to yes or no answers. Ignore what he explicitly stated, and read the subtext that I can't prove even exists.


You could have very well looked it up, Lana. You know, Google it.
I already knew about it. But Tolpuddle didn't give any indication that he was talking about it. His phrasing made it seem like he was talking about the women's lawsuit.
Direct question Lana: Were Google in court because they were allegedly systematically underpaying their female employees prior to sacking the author of the memo? Yes or no. Direct question number two: Could the memo negatively affect Google's court cases, plural, involving said allegation that they were systematically underpaying their female employees? Yes or no. Direct question three: Would it have been prudent for Google not to have sacked the author of the memo in the context of the company being involved in court cases about gender discrimination? Yes or no and why?


 In order, yes, no, and no.

 Bolding, italics, and underlining added for fucking emphasis. And for good measure, I made it larger. And BLUE.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 09:40:38 pm by Svata »
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #127 on: September 24, 2017, 10:27:21 pm »
Wow...you're dumber then I thought if you think 2 and 3.

Ironbite-like seriously you have no idea how that could affect a court case.

How so? Fundamentally, the memo give suggestions regarding how to be more inclusive to women.
Yeah while pointing to their genders supposed genetic shortcomings, in a company memo.

No way that could go over badly in a gender discrimination case!

Google bills itself as a company that values inclusivity, the US Department of Labor and several women have alleged otherwise. This dude is suggesting that too much inclusivity could cost money.

Quote
Philosophically, I don't think we should do arbitrary social engineering of tech just to make it appealing to equal portions of both men and women. For each of these changes, we need principles reasons for why it helps Google; that is, we should be optimising for Google — with Google's diversity being a component of that. For example currently those trying to work extra hours or take extra stress will inevitably get ahead and if we try to change that too much, it may have disastrous consequences.

Said because he's alleging the women are all doing touchy-feely womany things and not putting in the hard yards like the dudes.

Quote
Also, when considering the costs and benefits, we should keep in mind that Google's funding is finite so its allocation is more zero-sum than is generally acknowledged.

Can't imagine how that could have any baring on a pay dispute that's been festering since 2015. Maybe giving women what they owe is just too costly?

Aside from the case itself it's downright embarrassing for a corporation describing itself as pro diversity to have an employee describing diversity policies as a commie plot.

Quote
The Harm of Google's biases
I strongly believe in gender and racial diversity, and I think we should strive for more. However, to achieve a more equal gender and race representation, Google has created several discriminatory practices:

Programs, mentoring, and classes only for people with a certain gender or race [5]
A high priority queue and special treatment for "diversity" candidates
Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for "diversity" candidates by decreasing the false negative rate
Reconsidering any set of people if it's not "diverse" enough, but not showing that same scrutiny in the reverse direction (clear confirmation bias)
Setting org level OKRs for increased representation which can incentivise illegal discrimination [6]
These practices are based on false assumptions generated by our biases and can actually increase race and gender tensions. We're told by senior leadership that what we're doing is both the morally and economically correct thing to do, but without evidence this is just veiled left ideology[7] that can irreparably harm Google

That footnote, 7 being this:

Quote
[7] Communism promised to be both morally and economically superior to capitalism, but every attempt became morally corrupt and an economic failure. As it became clear that the working class of the liberal democracies wasn't going to overthrow their "capitalist oppressors," the Marxist intellectuals transitioned from class warfare to gender and race politics. The core oppressor-oppressed dynamics remained, but now the oppressor is the "white, straight, cis-gendered patriarchy."

This is just how detached from reality this Google broz is, he's stating that the "veiled left ideology" behind Google's diversity policies is Marxist-Leninism. In case it needs stating, a major multinational publicly traded company cannot be by any meaningful definition Marxist or Leninist. Neither Karl Marx nor Vladimir Lenin said diddly squat about diversity policies in publicly traded capitalist corporations. The idea that a capitalist behemoth like Google is pushing an ideology that ultimately seeks an overthrow of the ruling class and to install a dictatorship of the proletariat is fucking insane!

And that's the thing, if he had said Apple or Microsoft or even Linux were pushing diversity policies that were a third column for Marxist/Leninist communism it wouldn't have looked so bad. He did it for the company he works for without any evidence for this absurd claim. That Google's actual commitment to diversity was being challenged in court certainly didn't help but bottom line he was being insane on a company letterhead on his company's dime.

TL/DR he was sacked for saying idiotic things against his employer's anti discrimination policies in a company communication which was made worse by them facing lawsuits for discriminatory policies in court.


« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 09:50:14 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #128 on: September 26, 2017, 09:31:02 pm »
Wow...you're dumber then I thought if you think 2 and 3.

Ironbite-like seriously you have no idea how that could affect a court case.

How so? Fundamentally, the memo give suggestions regarding how to be more inclusive to women.

Besides, Tolpuddle specifically asked for yes or no answers, so he left me no room for nuance.

General reminder that the direct question rule does not require that you play along with any such restrictions or even answer questions, only that you acknowledge them.

Also as a personal note I kind of agree with Lana on this? One guy complaining that Google's diversity policy favours women too much is the opposite of evidence that Google discriminates against women. It should not have any relevance to that case at all, but if it does it's hard to argue it proves Google is discriminatory.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 09:34:10 pm by Sigmaleph »
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Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #129 on: September 26, 2017, 09:47:04 pm »
The cases themselves don't prove that Google is discriminatory, only that it's been alleged and there's a lot of money involved in the allegation.

One employees grumbling about diversity with specific reference to Cultural Marxism and an inexpert opinion about evolutionary psychology only reflects that the author believes that Googles diversity policies are bad.

Thiis is what is known. The US Dept of Labor and some of its employees believed that Google's policies were discriminatory enough to warrant investigation and litigation and one employee thinks their diversity policy goes too far.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 11:04:18 pm by Tolpuddle Martyr »

Offline Lana Reverse

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #130 on: October 06, 2017, 03:07:47 pm »
The cases themselves don't prove that Google is discriminatory, only that it's been alleged and there's a lot of money involved in the allegation.

One employees grumbling about diversity with specific reference to Cultural Marxism and an inexpert opinion about evolutionary psychology only reflects that the author believes that Googles diversity policies are bad.

Thiis is what is known. The US Dept of Labor and some of its employees believed that Google's policies were discriminatory enough to warrant investigation and litigation and one employee thinks their diversity policy goes too far.

So you're agreeing with Sigmaleph?

And in any case, Damore wasn't even a manager, let alone an exec. He was an engineer. His influence over company policy was negligible even before he got fired.
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Online ironbite

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #131 on: October 06, 2017, 04:44:25 pm »
Its still an indication that the executives above him tolerate and encourage this shit.

Offline Tolpuddle Martyr

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #132 on: October 07, 2017, 09:37:16 pm »
And in any case, Damore wasn't even a manager, let alone an exec. He was an engineer. His influence over company policy was negligible even before he got fired.
It doesn't look good if you are defending yourself against allegations of gender discrimination if you tolerate a hostile work environment.

If you tolerate assertions in a company communication that assert or imply that women are less capable of performing engineering roles by virtue of their gender then you are tolerating a hostile work environment.

Offline SCarpelan

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #133 on: October 08, 2017, 05:55:11 am »
The thing here is that the firing is problematic from labor rights perspective. The guy is an asshole and the company shouldn't tolerate him sending memos like that even if he is well meaning im his ignorance - he did suggest how to be more welcoming towards women but he based it on a sexist, misleading analysis.

In my opinion the proper response would have been a public denouncement of the memo and a chat with Damore to try to make him understand the situation. Even if he can't be made to understand why the memo was a bad idea he is not a problem if he doesn't repeat his behaviour and isn't in a leadership position. Only if he is or becomes a repeat offender is a firing a proper solution.

Offline RavynousHunter

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Re: Google facing multiple lawsuits
« Reply #134 on: October 08, 2017, 07:23:02 am »
Do we know if he was a repeat offender?  People like that usually don't just start shit outta the blue, so it isn't unreasonable to assume that he might have had other incidences of inappropriate behaviour.  Besides, the bigger and more public the cockup, the more severe the punishment.  Considering that Google has been trying to establish a more inclusive image, a black eye like this is something they can ill afford.
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