Author Topic: Feminism and Effective Propaganda  (Read 37287 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Even Then

  • Guest
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2015, 02:50:32 pm »
That's not exactly comparable. Black people were lynched mostly because of anti-black racism specifically, so it's a racial issue regardless of amounts. Rape threats themselves are technically gender-neutral,  but when one gender receives them in an uneven proportion to another, it's not exactly random chance.

Still, citation acknowledged.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2015, 03:19:49 pm »
That's not exactly comparable. Black people were lynched mostly because of anti-black racism specifically, so it's a racial issue regardless of amounts.


Yeah, that was a pretty serious brain fart.  My bad.

Rape threats themselves are technically gender-neutral,  but when one gender receives them in an uneven proportion to another, it's not exactly random chance

True, but on the other hand, women who get rape threats are far more likely to be given sympathetic treatment.

Even Then

  • Guest
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2015, 04:20:24 pm »
An issue with how male rape is treated, true.

Offline Rime

  • Pope
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
  • Gender: Male
  • Born too slow
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2015, 04:31:50 pm »
Let's start from the top, shall we?

Her twitter account alone had plenty of threats and the number of times the word "cunt" appeared didn't do much more than fuel the idea that there was a massive anti-woman culture in video games, even if that wasn't quite true.  Someone made a flash game so you could beat her up and you're claiming that it wasn't that bad? 

Furthermore, the reasonable comments were buried under the number of people acting like twelve year olds.  You've been to comments for YouTube and Twitter, you want to claim that it's fertile ground for civil discourse?  I can also claim that while there were plenty of reasonable critics (and Thunderf00t is under the bar IMHO), but there was nearly no effort to promote those people because Anita had dropped off the radar for most gamers. 

Finally,  I just noticed that the ME3 ending, A:CM and criticism of her videos weren't getting in the mainstream media.  I had noticed that the threats she had received for her videos (which are worthy of criticism) did make the mainstream news.  How does that make me the arbiter of newsworthiness?
And when we're done soul searching,
And we carry the weight and die for a cause.
Is misery made beautiful
Right before our eyes.

Mercy be revealed, or blind us where we stand?

Offline davedan

  • Lord Cracker
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3539
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2015, 04:53:40 pm »
UP Do you think that if women wish to be heard in public discourse they should expect and be compelled to put up with rape threats? Including ones which state where they live?

Offline ironbite

  • Overlord of all that is good in Iacon City
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 10686
  • Gender: Male
  • Stuck in the middle with you.
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2015, 06:08:37 pm »
I just gotta ask this and it's a yes or no question for UP.  Very simple.

Do you think Anita Sarkeesian's attempts to point out the inherent misogyny and sexism in the video game industry deserved people screaming for her head?

Ironbite-this is a yes or no question.

Offline Murdin

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2015, 07:06:42 pm »
But more important, I've done quite a bit of research into the controversy, and I've found that your narrative just doesn't hold water.

I would recommend anyone to stop listening to UP's opinion, and follow his professed methodology instead. While there are good reason to be wary of Atheism+, the circumstances for its emergence may not be as simplistic and one-sided as he claims.

Elevatorgate was a deplorable escalation of hostility and intolerance on both sides. People who enjoy wanking on their hate for Atheism+ and everything it represents are just as guilty for the pitiful state of the atheist "community" as the A+ buffoons themselves, if not moreso. I have to deal with atheists so full of themselves and their own superior Rationality™ that they reject on principle any accusation of prejudice or bias targeted at them or their ingroup way more often than ideologues who insist that lack of belief in God somehow implies a very specific brand of humanism, and that any atheist who do not follow that particular way of thought is "doing it wrong".


Furthermore, the media is rather selective in which women it sympathizes with.  Christina Hoff Sommers and Cathy Young are two prominent feminists who suffered a lot of harassment for going against the grain.

Not every expression of hostility constitutes harassment. And while they may or may not sincerely consider themselves feminists and hold feminist opinions, these two women cannot be called "prominent feminists" (with the implication of them being prominent activists of feminism) when they made themselves known mostly from their crusade against perceived feminist excesses.

Of course, I may not be completely objective about them, since I happen to think those two are perfect exhibits for a certain Nietzsche quote about fighting with monsters.


I just gotta ask this and it's a yes or no question for UP.  Very simple.

Do you think Anita Sarkeesian's attempts to point out the inherent misogyny and sexism in the video game industry deserved people screaming for her head?

Ironbite-this is a yes or no question.

I must say, I'm also very curious about the way you will choose to answer.

By the way Ironbite, I know I'm "falling for it" again and that those rants have little chance of bringing anything constructive. But with the way UP's archetypical "Internet Culture Guy" rhetoric and opinions and pet peeves (well, minus the atheism I guess) are taking over the discourse in these forums, I find myself enjoying my lurk less and less. Not because I'm unable to put up with challenges to my worldview, but because I've already heard that kind of bullshit a thousand times and over. You could call it a desperation move, to be honest.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2015, 10:09:54 pm »
Let's start from the top, shall we?

Let's.

Her twitter account alone had plenty of threats and the number of times the word "cunt" appeared didn't do much more than fuel the idea that there was a massive anti-woman culture in video games, even if that wasn't quite true.

Good point, but you have to consider the fact that people have been harassed for not toeing the "social justice" line.  Just ask Nolan North.  And yet I never heard any mainstream media outlet using that to claim there was a massive anti-man culture in social justice activism.

Moreover, she doxed somebody just for insulting her.  Not threatening.  Not harassing.  Insulting.



Someone made a flash game so you could beat her up and you're claiming that it wasn't that bad?

Somebody also made a game where you could beat up Justin Bieber.  Where was the outrage about that?  That's not to say I like either game (they're both crude, immature, and immoral), but again, it's evidence of a double standard.

Furthermore, the reasonable comments were buried under the number of people acting like twelve year olds.  You've been to comments for YouTube and Twitter, you want to claim that it's fertile ground for civil discourse?  I can also claim that while there were plenty of reasonable critics (and Thunderf00t is under the bar IMHO), but there was nearly no effort to promote those people because Anita had dropped off the radar for most gamers.

No matter how you slice it, that's the media's fault.  If they can't be bothered to do more complete research or present a balanced story, then it's up to them to change.

Finally,  I just noticed that the ME3 ending, A:CM and criticism of her videos weren't getting in the mainstream media.  I had noticed that the threats she had received for her videos (which are worthy of criticism) did make the mainstream news.  How does that make me the arbiter of newsworthiness?

Okay, sorry if I came off as hostile.  I didn't want to attack you.  However, the fact remains that the media, for whatever reason, decides to push a "damsel in distress" narrative at the expense of a very large subculture.

Quote from: Ibbles and Dave
Does Anita deserve what she got?

Of course Anita doesn't deserve the vitriol against her.  But honestly, I don't know why you care so much.  After all, there's one person extremely important to this discussion who doesn't care, and her name is Anita Sarkeesian.

Oh, she pretends to care, crying her crocodile tears and whining about how evil misogynists are going to rape and kill her (not necessarily in that order)  while the cameras are rolling.  But actions speak louder than words.  And when she had a golden opportunity to take action, she ignored it.

See, she cancelled a talk at the University of Utah because of a shooting threat (which the FBI deemed non-credible, but that's neither here nor there).  But some folks online managed to find the source of the threats: a Brazilian journalist.  They notified the FBI, the Brazilian authorities, and Anita herself.  All that was needed was for her to report it.

This was a huge opportunity for her.  She had a chance to deal with a particularly vile harasser.  If he went down, this might have made her other harassers disincentivized to go after her, as there would now be actual consequences for it.  She had a chance to prove that she wasn't helpless, that she wasn't an easy target for any jackass with an internet connection.  She had a chance to fight back, and to prove that she actually was being harassed.

What did she do?  She ignored it.

This is not the behavior of a woman who legitimately fears for her life.  This is the behavior of a woman who wants to play the victim so that she can get money and fame.

Does that mean she deserves it?  Of course not.  However, that doesn't mean you should be concerned.  After all, she isn't.

But more important, I've done quite a bit of research into the controversy, and I've found that your narrative just doesn't hold water.

I would recommend anyone to stop listening to UP's opinion, and follow his professed methodology instead. While there are good reason to be wary of Atheism+, the circumstances for its emergence may not be as simplistic and one-sided as he claims.

Elevatorgate was a deplorable escalation of hostility and intolerance on both sides. People who enjoy wanking on their hate for Atheism+ and everything it represents are just as guilty for the pitiful state of the atheist "community" as the A+ buffoons themselves, if not moreso. I have to deal with atheists so full of themselves and their own superior Rationality™ that they reject on principle any accusation of prejudice or bias targeted at them or their ingroup way more often than ideologues who insist that lack of belief in God somehow implies a very specific brand of humanism, and that any atheist who do not follow that particular way of thought is "doing it wrong".

Ah yes, the whole "both sides are equally bad" card.  There are some cases where that's legitimately true, but most of the time, it's just an excuse people use to stay neutral on the issue while feeling superior about it..

Furthermore, the media is rather selective in which women it sympathizes with.  Christina Hoff Sommers and Cathy Young are two prominent feminists who suffered a lot of harassment for going against the grain.

Not every expression of hostility constitutes harassment. And while they may or may not sincerely consider themselves feminists and hold feminist opinions, these two women cannot be called "prominent feminists" (with the implication of them being prominent activists of feminism) when they made themselves known mostly from their crusade against perceived feminist excesses.

And now a "No True Scotsman."  By your logic, any Christian who calls out Pat Robertson isn't actually a Christian.

Of course, I may not be completely objective about them, since I happen to think those two are perfect exhibits for a certain Nietzsche quote about fighting with monsters.

Care to elaborate?  What, exactly, have they done that's so grievous?  Question flawed (if not outright false) statistics?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 10:23:41 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline mellenORL

  • Pedal Pushing Puppy Peon
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3876
  • Gender: Female
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2015, 10:35:48 pm »
Quote
What did she do?  She ignored it.

This is not the behavior of a woman who legitimately fears for her life.  This is the behavior of a woman who wants to play the victim so that she can get money and fame.

I'm gonna try and translate this from mansplain as : "Grow a pair, Anita!"
Quote from: Ultimate Chatbot That Totally Passes The Turing Test
I sympathize completely. However, to use against us. Let me ask you a troll. On the one who pulled it. But here's the question: where do I think it might as well have stepped out of all people would cling to a layman.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2015, 10:37:37 pm »
Quote
What did she do?  She ignored it.

This is not the behavior of a woman who legitimately fears for her life.  This is the behavior of a woman who wants to play the victim so that she can get money and fame.

I'm gonna try and translate this from mansplain as : "Grow a pair, Anita!"

Mind giving me a reason why she didn't follow through?

Offline ironbite

  • Overlord of all that is good in Iacon City
  • Kakarot
  • ******
  • Posts: 10686
  • Gender: Male
  • Stuck in the middle with you.
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2015, 10:44:21 pm »
Quote
What did she do?  She ignored it.

This is not the behavior of a woman who legitimately fears for her life.  This is the behavior of a woman who wants to play the victim so that she can get money and fame.

I'm gonna try and translate this from mansplain as : "Grow a pair, Anita!"

Yeah and I really didn't get an answer to my question soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....

Ironbite-*munches popcorn*

Offline Ultimate Paragon

  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8423
  • Gender: Male
  • Tougher than diamonds, stronger than steel
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2015, 10:51:49 pm »
Quote
What did she do?  She ignored it.

This is not the behavior of a woman who legitimately fears for her life.  This is the behavior of a woman who wants to play the victim so that she can get money and fame.

I'm gonna try and translate this from mansplain as : "Grow a pair, Anita!"

Yeah and I really didn't get an answer to my question soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....

Ironbite-*munches popcorn*

Yes, you did.

Offline Askold

  • Definitely not hiding a dark secret.
  • Global Moderator
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 8358
  • Gender: Male
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2015, 01:16:36 am »
All I say about this is that no matter how much I disagree with Sarkeesian's videos the trolls who attacked her really did prove that gamers hate women.

Not all gamers (no pun intended) but a significant amount of gamers attacked her merely because she is a woman. (Important point being that most of the attacks were directly against her rather than what she was saying.)
No matter what happens, no matter what my last words may end up being, I want everyone to claim that they were:
"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Aww, you guys rock. :)  I feel the love... and the pitchforks and torches.  Tingly!

Offline davedan

  • Lord Cracker
  • The Beast
  • *****
  • Posts: 3539
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2015, 02:28:46 am »
Quote
What did she do?  She ignored it.

This is not the behavior of a woman who legitimately fears for her life.  This is the behavior of a woman who wants to play the victim so that she can get money and fame.

I'm gonna try and translate this from mansplain as : "Grow a pair, Anita!"

Yeah and I really didn't get an answer to my question soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....

Ironbite-*munches popcorn*

Yes, you did.

Ok so you think that women who want to be heard in public discourse should have to accept rape and death threats. That's fabulous.

Offline Murdin

  • Bishop
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2015, 03:12:29 am »
Ah yes, the whole "both sides are equally bad" card.  There are some cases where that's legitimately true, but most of the time, it's just an excuse people use to stay neutral on the issue while feeling superior about it..

Ah yes, the whole "well, you're dumb" card. Also, taking a stance against both SJWs and Internet culture dudebros is not "staying neutral on the issue" Forgive me for dealing with polemics with a more complex mindset than just trying to determine which side is "the most right".

And now a "No True Scotsman."  By your logic, any Christian who calls out Pat Robertson isn't actually a Christian.

I mean, it's not like I precised exactly what I meant by it in the very part you quoted.

Care to elaborate?  What, exactly, have they done that's so grievous?  Question flawed (if not outright false) statistics?

The point is not that they are monstrous, the feminists they so love to fight generally aren't either. They use the exact same harmful methods as their opponents. For example, when some feminists systematically try to inflate the magnitude and genderedness of rape statistics and only talk about specific accusations of rape to take the side of the alleged victim, their response is... to systematically try to minimize the magnitude and genderedness of rape statistics and only talk about specific accusations to take the side of the alleged rapist. No call for moderation, just the same bullshit in reverse.


Also, your message as a whole was just plain nasty. Apparently, people who "stay neutral on an issue" are not the only that can be obnoxious and contemptuous about their position. Go figure.