Author Topic: Feminism and Effective Propaganda  (Read 37168 times)

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Offline davedan

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Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« on: October 13, 2015, 09:00:21 pm »
This is to continue the discussion UP and I were having in the "Worst of Social Justice Thread" about what is the cause for certain prominent Women to disclaim that they are in fact feminists.

To summarise UP's position as I understand it, prominent women such as Meryl Streep have on occasion baulked at being labelled feminists because of certain 'bad' feminists. His example was a red-haired non entity apparently called 'Chanty Binx' who appears to have been widely persecuted for having the unmitigated gall to yell at an MRA protest and to be present at another protest where a Fire Alarm was pulled.

UP also thinks that prominent 'good' feminists, should regularly issue statements distancing themselves from the 'bad' feminists. This is apparently important for the purpose of good propaganda and PR is important.

We also disagree about the definition of feminism. UP suggested we stop clogging up the Worst of Social Justice thread and said he would create a new thread. As he hasn't, here is mine. To continue with my questions from the last Post:

 As for my position on Quakers that was a reading fail and Melon was right.

While it may not take long to release a statement, they first have:

1. To be aware of the incident;
2. Care about the incident enough to at least form an informed opinion of it;
3. Prepare a statement.

Given the number of piddling things you care about, I suspect denouncing those straying from the pure ideology you seek would be a full time job. Also I'm pleased that you don't believe they know how to best manage their time. No that's not a condescending attitude at all.

As for Atheism+ I'm going to have to plead ignorance, I have know Idea who they are.

- So as you wanted to continue the discussion somewhere else, let's go...




Offline guizonde

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 09:18:28 pm »
you know, you could replace "feminist" with "conservative" and your post still makes sense.
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Offline davedan

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2015, 09:26:38 pm »
Really? I have noticed lately that 'conservatives' appear to be really prominently embracing the label. Even when there is some doubt as to whether it applies, that is they are truly reactionary or a new type of radical.

Other than that impression, that is fine, because I think that prominent political/social/philosophical thinkers should go on producing their work rather than trying to cleanse their camp of dissenters/troublemakers and unattractive PR.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2015, 09:40:48 pm »
I have never argued that feminism should be an ideologically pure movement.  What I want is for the extremists and bigots to be directly challenged by more reasonable elements of the feminist movement, much like the Muslims who denounce terrorism.  Yes, there are some prominent feminists who challenge toxfem rhetoric, but the fact that they keep getting shouted down and seem to have so few defenders within the movement is extremely disconcerting.

Long story short, Atheism+ was an attempt by radflakes to inject their usual brand of identity politics into organized atheism.  The community at large refused to bite, triggering a civil war.  Eventually, the anti-radflake atheists managed to win, driving them into their safe spaces.  But although they failed to hijack atheism, they did manage to get their names on the map.  Atheism+ isn't dead, not by a longshot.  These days, it's got some pretty influential people involved, such as PZ Meyers. 

In any case, the damage was done to the community.  It's from this controversy that the stereotype of the trilby-donning, neckbearded, selectively skeptical misogynist became common on the internet.  More important, the skeptic community itself was seriously disrupted.  They may have won, but it was a pyrrhic victory. 

Also, I'm going to need some citations about the persecution Big Red supposedly suffered.  I've honestly never heard anything about that.

Offline Cataclysm

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2015, 10:04:06 pm »
Really? I have noticed lately that 'conservatives' appear to be really prominently embracing the label. Even when there is some doubt as to whether it applies, that is they are truly reactionary or a new type of radical.

Prominent ones, but many others are jumping on the libertarian label. "Look at me I hate both parties, but I'm going to vote republican"

Also, I'm going to need some citations about the persecution Big Red supposedly suffered.  I've honestly never heard anything about that.

According to Anita Sarkeesian saying "you're a liar" and "you suck" is harassment.
I'd be more sympathetic if people here didn't act like they knew what they were saying when they were saying something very much wrong.

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Offline ironbite

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2015, 10:07:17 pm »
I'll break out the garbage cans full of popcorn.

Ironbite-the plastic ones...they hold more.

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2015, 10:10:05 pm »
Personally, I feel as though if you're going to stereotype an entire idea based on a few idiots on Tumblr, then it's not their responsibility to address it. Nobody with two brain cells to rub together would argue that the KKK existing is somehow black people's fault because they don't speak out against "gangstas" loudly and frequently enough. The principle here is no different.

Offline davedan

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2015, 10:15:49 pm »
She was doxxed and her dating profile revealed. But she's not on the same 'side' as you so that's fine. I

See it's funny that you used Muslims as an example because I think it's fucking ridiculous that they are expected to come out and denounce terrorism after anything happens but at least it's over an important event when someone died.

When was the last massacre, terrorist event, explosion, where the killer claimed to be motivated by their deeply held feminism? I don't want them coming out to denounce every feminist who behaves badly or arrogantly.

Nor do I expect Christians to come out and denounce extremists whenever something goes badly. Not that they do. In fact as with Josh Duggar they usually come out and defend the person rather than denouncing them.

Also isn't the desire to 'isolate' 'toxic' feminists trying to make them ideologically pure?

I fail to see as that what you describe really damaged the 'sceptic or athiest community'. It's probably difficult given the community is not united in a  common belief but simply by sharing a common lack of belief.


Offline davedan

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2015, 10:16:44 pm »
Personally, I feel as though if you're going to stereotype an entire idea based on a few idiots on Tumblr, then it's not their responsibility to address it. Nobody with two brain cells to rub together would argue that the KKK existing is somehow black people's fault because they don't speak out against "gangstas" loudly and frequently enough. The principle here is no different.

You said that more succinctly than I ever could.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2015, 10:20:34 pm »
Personally, I feel as though if you're going to stereotype an entire idea based on a few idiots on Tumblr, then it's not their responsibility to address it. Nobody with two brain cells to rub together would argue that the KKK existing is somehow black people's fault because they don't speak out against "gangstas" loudly and frequently enough. The principle here is no different.

Oh, I'm not stereotyping the idea of feminism.  I'm a feminist myself, and I think most feminists are decent, rational people.  The problem, as usual, is with a vocal minority.  But here's the thing: in this case, the vocal minority has a disturbing amount of influence, and they aren't getting challenged by the people who would mutilate just about any other kind of extremist.  When Stephen Colbert puts on the kid gloves while interviewing a proven liar, something is wrong.  Furthermore, the fact that their critics are consistently accused of being misogynistic is really, really disturbing.

She was doxxed and her dating profile revealed. But she's not on the same 'side' as you so that's fine.

Okay, that was awful.  Nobody deserves that.

See it's funny that you used Muslims as an example because I think it's fucking ridiculous that they are expected to come out and denounce terrorism after anything happens but at least it's over an important event when someone died.

Difference is they actually do condemn it.  And they have.  Frequently.  But it seems like the media can't be bothered to cover it.

When was the last massacre, terrorist event, explosion, where the killer claimed to be motivated by their deeply held feminism? I don't want them coming out to denounce every feminist who behaves badly or arrogantly.

It's not on the same level as Islamic terrorism, no, but it still causes legitimate harm.  Two words: Tim Hunt.

Nor do I expect Christians to come out and denounce extremists whenever something goes badly. Not that they do. In fact as with Josh Duggar they usually come out and defend the person rather than denouncing them.

Okay, that's both incorrect and offensive.  I can link you to several Christians who denounced Mr. Duggar.

Also isn't the desire to 'isolate' 'toxic' feminists trying to make them ideologically pure?

No, it's trying to deprive them of their influence.  They can still scream their brains out all they want.  Hell, I'd even be willing to give them a platform.  But based on general principle, they should not go unchallenged, and legitimate criticism of them ought to be heard and taken seriously. 

I fail to see as that what you describe really damaged the 'sceptic or athiest community'. It's probably difficult given the community is not united in a  common belief but simply by sharing a common lack of belief.

Do you want sources?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 10:39:57 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline davedan

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2015, 10:46:09 pm »
1. What is the Colbert thing about?

2. Who is Tim Hunt?

3. Josh Duggar - I can link you to those who have defended him.

4. Muslims - I accept that they do - but as I said. That. They. Are. Expected. To.  Is. Completely. Ridiculous.

5. Wouldn't ignoring them be better?

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2015, 10:55:03 pm »
Personally, I feel as though if you're going to stereotype an entire idea based on a few idiots on Tumblr, then it's not their responsibility to address it. Nobody with two brain cells to rub together would argue that the KKK existing is somehow black people's fault because they don't speak out against "gangstas" loudly and frequently enough. The principle here is no different.

Oh, I'm not stereotyping the idea of feminism.  I'm a feminist myself, and I think most feminists are decent, rational people.  The problem, as usual, is with a vocal minority.  But here's the thing: in this case, the vocal minority has a disturbing amount of influence, and they aren't getting challenged by the people who would mutilate just about any other kind of extremist.  When Stephen Colbert puts on the kid gloves while interviewing a proven liar, something is wrong.  Furthermore, the fact that their critics are consistently accused of being misogynistic is really, really disturbing.

I'm not saying that you're stereotyping feminism, but you are saying that they're responsible for those that do (by "responsible", I don't mean that it's their fault, but rather that it's their job to fix it). If someone's going to judge an idea like feminism on the behavior of some mouth breathers on Tumblr rather than the merits of the idea itself, then not regular feminist's responsibility to correct them.

If you want a more practical reason for it, their time and effort is better spent on doing their own feminist things rather than pandering to people who've already dismissed them as Tumblrinas in the first place. Not to mention, these sorts of people are more often than not motivated by tribalism rather than simple misguided reasoning. I.E. Tumblrinas are just a handy excuse to dismiss feminism, not the actual reason for it. Trying to reason with them is a waste of time.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2015, 10:59:24 pm »
1. What is the Colbert thing about?

He had Anita Sarkeesian on his show, and played softball with her.  And even then, she still managed to make herself look like a pretentious know-nothing.  "Name three games," anyone?

2. Who is Tim Hunt?

A Nobel Prize-winning chemist who was forced to resign from his positions due to false accusations of sexism.

3. Josh Duggar - I can link you to those who have defended him.

I don't doubt it.  But you can't just lump in all Christians with those apologists.  Not without being a hypocrite, anyway.

4. Muslims - I accept that they do - but as I said. That. They. Are. Expected. To.  Is. Completely. Ridiculous.

It's ridiculous, yes, but the fact remains that they're far more willing to push back against hateful extremists.  Where were the feminists who denounced the death threats Erin Pizzey received?  That's not a rhetorical question, I legitimately want to know.

5. Wouldn't ignoring them be better?

Ignoring bullies rarely works.

Offline davedan

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2015, 12:51:18 am »
Sorry I have never gotten the fuss about Anita Sarkeesian, I don't see how she's the devil or why she should be screamed at on sight.

I don't see how Tim Hunt is the problem of feminism. Sexual Harassment is wrong. People need to feel safe at work. That enforcement of a rule got it wrong on an occasion doesn't mean you should get rid of the rule.

Duggar - then why are you lumping in all feminists together. You can only see the hypocrisy one way?

You're supposedly a feminist aren't you denouncing them? Job done.

Most of these people aren't bullies and no one would know about them if they weren't MRA talking points.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: Feminism and Effective Propaganda
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2015, 01:05:52 am »
Sorry I have never gotten the fuss about Anita Sarkeesian, I don't see how she's the devil or why she should be screamed at on sight.

Not screamed at, no.  But the fact that nobody in the mainstream media seems willing to challenge her claims is honestly disturbing.

I don't see how Tim Hunt is the problem of feminism. Sexual Harassment is wrong. People need to feel safe at work. That enforcement of a rule got it wrong on an occasion doesn't mean you should get rid of the rule.

No, but it does mean you shouldn't automatically believe accusations.  Innocent until proven guilty. 

Besides, it wasn't sexual harassment, it was about supposed sexist remarks he made.

Duggar - then why are you lumping in all feminists together. You can only see the hypocrisy one way?

I wasn't doing that.

You're supposedly a feminist aren't you denouncing them? Job done.

Yes, but a very obscure one, and a male one at that.  Hardly anybody would listen to me, and even if they did, a lot of them would just use me as an example of how male feminists need to toe the line.

Most of these people aren't bullies and no one would know about them if they weren't MRA talking points.

1.  You're technically right, in that most of them can't be bothered to do more than reblog.  But the fact remains that their bullying causes genuine harm.  People have killed themselves because of it.

2.  Is it wrong to bring their bad behavior to light?