Author Topic: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week  (Read 23149 times)

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Offline Sigmaleph

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2015, 11:12:45 pm »
Instant Runoff Voting  maybe a beginning of a cure for our electoral ills, which has a fan in a certain nominee, and has been gaining popularity in elections of city officials across the nation.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


I remember the last time you posted that link, I forgot to bookmark it for future reference. Saved it this time!
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Offline dpareja

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2015, 12:14:31 am »
Not saying I'm in total agreement, but at this point I'm willing to try anything other the shit hole that is our current electoral system
Also the colors in that link hurt my eyes.

Yeah, can't do much about the colours, sorry.

But his point is that Hare is worse than the turd that is plurality.
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2015, 08:53:41 am »
As I said, I'm not completely on board with IRV, though it can serve as a step towards an Condorcet method

Offline dpareja

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2015, 12:52:55 pm »
As I said, I'm not completely on board with IRV, though it can serve as a step towards an Condorcet method

It could. It could also stall the case for electoral reform entirely (we changed once, why are you making us learn yet another system) and stick those jurisdictions that switch to it with something that is, as I noted, worse than what they had.
Quote from: Jordan Duram
It doesn't concern you, Sister, that kind of absolutist view of the universe? Right and wrong determined solely by a single all-knowing, all powerful being whose judgment cannot be questioned and in whose name the most horrendous acts can be sanctioned without appeal?

Quote from: Supreme Court of Canada
Being required by someone else’s religious beliefs to behave contrary to one’s sexual identity is degrading and disrespectful.

Offline rookie

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2015, 12:58:01 pm »
I plan on voting third party (for president) as I've done since 2000. I like being silly and voting for who I think will best represent my interests rather than the one who will at least look for lube before screwing me. But I have to say I love the pageantry. During the primaries, candidates run as far to the wings as fast as they can. Then turn around and run just as fast back to center to "win" my registered independent vote. It's great, sometimes they spin around back to center so fast they fall down.
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Offline Svata

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2015, 02:14:41 pm »
I plan on voting third party (for president) as I've done since 2000. I like being silly and voting for who I think will best represent my interests rather than the one who will at least look for lube before screwing me. But I have to say I love the pageantry. During the primaries, candidates run as far to the wings as fast as they can. Then turn around and run just as fast back to center to "win" my registered independent vote. It's great, sometimes they spin around back to center so fast they fall down.

Dammit, where's the like button?
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2015, 12:41:13 am »
Ok, didn't get to watch most of the debate, but I'm somewhat friends with someone that can go SJW every so often, and they're complaining saying that Bernie inferred that women should only take care of children, and end their career. Would like to call bs on that, given that it sounds like an exaggeration of Bernie's maternity leave idea.

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2015, 01:12:03 am »
My stream cut out before that part, so I didn't see it, but it looks like he misspoke, and that such a policy that he supports may actually have such an effect. Either way, I didn't see him say it, and I don't consider it an issue as I would like some strong, albeit optional, maternity leave in this country (which Bernie endorses).

Overall thoughts on the debate. Webb fucked up. Being unknown, he had golden opportunities to move to the left and make himself relevant. He was content to remain a blue dog, and alienate the base. Bad showing. He tried too hard, and having seen him debate several times before in VA, he's better than his showing. He choked under pressure.

Chaffee came off as the oddball of the group. I'm guessing in his spare-time he freelances as the most boring man in America. He doesn't always cross the road, but when he does it's at a crosswalk with the "walk now" symbol flashing. He doesn't always always have sex, but when he does it's with his wife, after 5 years of marriage and mutual consent contracts which have been drafted by some of the top law firms in the nation. He doesn't always drive, but when he does it's at 5 miles below the speed limit. You get the idea.

O'Malley came off as an Irresponsible White Person. He spoke too much of the Baltimore riots and acted as though he understood the underlying problem while doing nothing substantively to explain race relations in this country. His highlight came when he went at Bernie on gun control. His low-point was criticizing Hillary for being Hawkish, only to be reminded that he endorsed her over Obama (who did not support Iraq) in 2008. Overall, he failed. He didn't fail miserably, but believe me, he tried.

Bernie had a decent first showing for democrats and liberals who may not be familiar with him. He came of as unscripted and authentic, which helped and hurt him at times. His focus on addressing citizens united instead of emails was one of, if not the, highlight of the debate. His fans were definitely in attendance. He had a bad exchange with O'Malley in which he did nothing to substantively distinguish his record on gun-control, except to say rural and rural over and over. Made him look weak, angry, and inarticulate. The maternity leave thing may turn into a gaffe, we'll know by the end of the week. Nonetheless, overall, he had positives tonight, and he had negatives tonight, and in my opinion, the positives outweigh the negatives.

Hillary won the debate. In debates, the best thing you can do when you're the front-runner is look presidential, not fuck up, and not let it get away from you. She did all of those things. Her biggest weakness of the night was when she tried to criticize Sanders for his socialist record, by appealing to the crowd that "we're America." It seemed corny, out of touch, and lacking substance; it seemed more fitting for a Republican debate. Fortunately for her she never got called on it. She did a good job addressing the issue of her vote to invade Iraq, and I think she found the answer to put that attack point to rest (Obama appointing her Secretary of State and trusting her international judgment). Overall, she spoke well, was polished, her answers were concise and (for the most part) addressed the questions. She did everything a front-runner in these debates needed to do, get out of the debate to see the light of another day.

Now the only question is, "will Biden jump in?"
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 01:14:22 am by The_Queen »
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Offline davedan

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2015, 01:28:32 am »
Any chance of Biden agreeing to be VP again with either Sanders/Clinton?

Offline nickiknack

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2015, 01:30:02 am »
I don't get how that's a gaffe, after all women are the ones who due end up given birth, so of course new mothers should spend time with their newborns, it doesn't equal them "giving up their career".
Also, ugh reason.org. Sorry, I just have a hate for LOLibertarians that is hotter than the sun.
Actually it's insulting to the progressives within the party what Hillary did to Sanders over the whole "socialism" crap. I guess that's nice preview what she's going to do for people like me, NOT A FUCKING THING.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 01:45:58 am by nickiknack »

Offline The_Queen

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2015, 06:52:00 am »
I don't get how that's a gaffe, after all women are the ones who due end up given birth, so of course new mothers should spend time with their newborns, it doesn't equal them "giving up their career".
Also, ugh reason.org. Sorry, I just have a hate for LOLibertarians that is hotter than the sun.
Actually it's insulting to the progressives within the party what Hillary did to Sanders over the whole "socialism" crap. I guess that's nice preview what she's going to do for people like me, NOT A FUCKING THING.

Gaffes can be created by the views/media. A good example is in 2008 when Obama criticized McCain's foreign policy by likening it to Bush the Stupid's foreign policy. Obama stated something to the effect of "a rose by any other name is still a rose. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig." Nothing wrong here, except that McCain's vice president, Sarah Palin, was the only woman left in the race, and many people wanted to believe it was a a dig at her. Realistically, it wasn't. But either the media pushed it on its own accord, or enough people felt that it was an issue that the media ran with it in an attempt to stay relevant.

I don't think Bernie meant anything by it, but at the same time he is running against a woman and three stooges. Like Obama had to watch out, so does Bernie. He said his point in a way that gave rise to a separate interpretation that could hurt him. We'll know by tomorrow if the media runs with it. It's stupid, and it's a non-issue, but it is politics. I also think a better way to defend him is not to argue that women should spend time with their newborns (as it has the same amiguity), but to point out that it is a non-issue and likely intentional misinterpretation, and that only wants to see us implement paid maternity leave like all but 3 other nations.

Any chance of Biden agreeing to be VP again with either Sanders/Clinton?


Probably not. Legally speaking, he could serve as their vice president, as could Bill Clinton. But, personally speaking, I don't see it happening. But, I think he would be a decent choice.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 08:05:17 am by The_Queen »
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Offline Vypernight

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2015, 07:35:40 am »
Overall, the debate was miles ahead of the GOP ones.  I love how a number of comments complain that it was, 'so boring,' because they didn't bash each other and actually tried to answer the questions.  At times though, it seemed like Clinton was being the adult among 4 children, though Sanders stood the closest to her.

I also noticed the 3 minor guys squirmed when asked about Clinton, especially as she glared at them.  Sanders, however, never flinched. O'Malley finally grew a pair about halfway during the debate, which will make things interesting in the next one. 

I honestly didn't even notice Sanders' gaffe, but enough people might have for the media to jump on it, especially as he is against a woman.  My only gripe about Sanders is that he went to the well too many times, answering questions with the same answers.  For example, when asked about wars, he talked about the economy; health care - economy; foreign relations - economy.  Now, this is probably just the way he sees things as all connected, but others may see it as his only being able to handle one or two topics. 

In addition, I noticed that when Sanders answered a question but was thinking of another topic (possibly related to a previous question), he'd talk about the previous topic first, then move on to answer the question.  An example was not getting to if he'd send to U.S. to war.  Cooper called him on it, and rightly so, but then Sanders answered the question.  I don't know if that will help or hurt him.  Some may see it as his avoiding the question or stalling, even though he did eventually answer the question at hand.

Clinton, in my view, did win the debate, but on her presence and manner of answering questions alone.  As for content, she was so full of shit, the first 5 rows should've been wearing raincoats!  But then again, when are the debates ever really about substance?

I also found it interesting that the candidates rarely took pot-shots at each other, but instead respectfully disagreed.  They had no problem slamming the GOP though, and I completely agreed.

And Sanders, with his, "enough of the damn emails!" showed how you can steal someone's spotlight by agreeing with them. 

Overall, great debate, but Sanders has to work on his presence and and answer more clearly at times, to show he's Clinton's equal, if not better.
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Offline mellenORL

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2015, 10:31:31 am »
Ok, didn't get to watch most of the debate, but I'm somewhat friends with someone that can go SJW every so often, and they're complaining saying that Bernie inferred that women should only take care of children, and end their career. Would like to call bs on that, given that it sounds like an exaggeration of Bernie's maternity leave idea.
Um, yeah, NO - to your somewhat friend. He simply failed to also mention the word "father" in re family leave when referring to a new baby in the household.

The debaters all had to rush here and there to get their comments in before Anderson Cooper and the flashing red light switched the focus to another candidate. All of them had a couple of awkward sentences or words or truncated statements due to that.
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Offline rookie

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2015, 10:59:12 am »
As long as O'Malley didn't win it. I didn't get to see any of the debate, just the clips the news decided I should see. But from talking to people who did see it, it seemed like the candidates in the Democratic debate wanted voters to hear where they stood on issues more than attacking those sharing the stage.

Eta: The anti O'Malley vibe is strong in Maryland. And my friends who said he didn't win would have said that no matter what. If anyone here who saw it could confirm or deny that, I'd sure appreciate it.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 12:43:00 pm by rookie »
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Offline nickiknack

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Re: Sanders/Clinton Democratic debate next week
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2015, 02:03:42 pm »
Um, Queen, I don't mean to be rude, but I know what a "gaffe" is. I may be unpolished, but I do have a BA in Political Science, and I know my stuff(though I will admit I may be a bit rusty given that I've been turned out of giving a shit about politics for a number of years), so you can come off as being a bit on the condescending side. I know you didn't mean to, but you may want to keep that in check for the future.