Author Topic: Victim of bullying finally wins  (Read 29296 times)

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Art Vandelay

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #75 on: January 09, 2012, 09:49:06 am »
Yes, he was a bully. But bullying doesn't deserve the death penalty, thus he also didn't deserve being killed in self-defense.
...Seriously? Didn't deserve to be killed in self defence? Here's a crazy idea, if you don't want to be oh so undeservingly killed in self-defence, wait for it... Don't, along with several of your friends, try to kick the shit out of some kid for your own amusement. That way, get ready for this, he won't be in a position of either knife you or have ten shades of shit beaten out of him! Amazing, huh?

Offline Vene

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #76 on: January 09, 2012, 10:44:35 am »
I don't think the victim made the right choice with the knife, but he was left few options.  Stabbing someone isn't acceptable, but neither is getting the shit beat out of you on a regular basis.
I want you to tell me what he should have done instead. That it was brought to the point of killing is horrible, but if the knife was not acceptable, what was acceptable?

Offline sandman

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #77 on: January 09, 2012, 10:46:12 am »
Art, no one was saying that this asshole kid was right or justified in his bullying. No one is disputing that he deserved consequences for his actions. Serious consequences. Bullying like this is a curse on American (and all) youth. No one is denying that the primary cause of the death was the bully, not the victim.  No one is saying that the victim had no right to defend himself, obviously he was horribly provoked. It's tragic he felt he had no choice but to arm himself with a deadly weapon, that he believed he had no other options, no where to turn, no one to turn to. No one is saying that this idiot bully didn't bring it on himself.

People are just saying that, generally speaking, bullying is not a transgression worthy of death. Try to understand their point of view. Many teens are short-sighted fools who believe themselves immortal and half the time don't think for a second about how what they are doing is unbelievably stupid. Most bullies are just immature idiots, not psychopaths. I can certainly imagine a situation where the bully turned out to be a true psychopath bent on killing the victim and thus the victim had no choice but to respond with deadly force. Not being in full possession of all of the facts in this case, I can't say if that was the reality or not. This could have been a true psychotic preying on a weaker student who was forced to defend his own life with deadly force. Or it could have been a tragic event where a run-of-the-mill bully stupidly and cruelly pushed some kid so far that the victim, in terror and desperation, responded with deadly force. I make no blanket judgments based on the paltry information I possess about this occurrence.

I think what people are objecting to is the blanket attitude that bullies deserve death.
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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #78 on: January 09, 2012, 10:56:22 am »
To quote the lawyer: a tragedy all the way around.

+1

Ditto. The circumstances surrounding his death aren't going to make this loss any less painful for his family and friends, regardless of whether or not one feels this was a justifiable homicide. In light of that, it's rather difficult to be cavalier about his death.
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Offline rageaholic

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #79 on: January 09, 2012, 11:11:58 am »
So I don't know if any of you guys paid any attention to the comments, but we have this facepalm worthy post from them.

Quote from: JohnDoh
Stand your ground shouldn't apply here.. this is sending a message that if you're too big of a girl to fight after school, just kill whoever's about to kick your a--, and you'll get out of it...
All the fights after school I've been in, and witnessed, arrested or not, were never a felony charge. It's a little fight.. Glad to see our justice system still sucks heading into 2012

Uh I remember reading that same comment when this was posted on another site. 

Typical macho bully. 

Art Vandelay

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2012, 12:53:37 pm »
Art, no one was saying that this asshole kid was right or justified in his bullying. No one is disputing that he deserved consequences for his actions. Serious consequences. Bullying like this is a curse on American (and all) youth. No one is denying that the primary cause of the death was the bully, not the victim.  No one is saying that the victim had no right to defend himself, obviously he was horribly provoked. It's tragic he felt he had no choice but to arm himself with a deadly weapon, that he believed he had no other options, no where to turn, no one to turn to. No one is saying that this idiot bully didn't bring it on himself.

People are just saying that, generally speaking, bullying is not a transgression worthy of death. Try to understand their point of view. Many teens are short-sighted fools who believe themselves immortal and half the time don't think for a second about how what they are doing is unbelievably stupid. Most bullies are just immature idiots, not psychopaths. I can certainly imagine a situation where the bully turned out to be a true psychopath bent on killing the victim and thus the victim had no choice but to respond with deadly force. Not being in full possession of all of the facts in this case, I can't say if that was the reality or not. This could have been a true psychotic preying on a weaker student who was forced to defend his own life with deadly force. Or it could have been a tragic event where a run-of-the-mill bully stupidly and cruelly pushed some kid so far that the victim, in terror and desperation, responded with deadly force. I make no blanket judgments based on the paltry information I possess about this occurrence.

I think what people are objecting to is the blanket attitude that bullies deserve death.

I'm not saying all of them necessarily do. It's more that if you decide to physically attack someone, purely for your own amusement, no less, then you'll get no sympathy whatsoever from me if the victim responds with deadly force.

Offline Oriet

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #81 on: January 09, 2012, 01:10:18 pm »
I believe the judge was right with their ruling, that given the circumstance the kid had little to no choice in defending himself. That the bully died is  tragic, but entirely his own fault. Saavedra had been the target of Nuno's bullying for a long time, and he constantly tried to avoid and get away from it. Saavedra knew what Nuno and his pals were capable of, and he also knew they kept escalating it.

Saavedra knew a severe beating was going to be taking place because it was being announced, and so he took action to avoid it by getting off the bus several stops early. Unfortunately it did not work, as Nuno and his pals, intent on bullying Saavedra, followed him off of the bus then. He was still intent on avoiding being beaten and getting away when Nuno hit him in the back of the fucking head. Even with that Saavedra tried to get away. Nuno and his goons still came after him, all of them attacking.

Being outnumbered 3 to 1 in a fistfight is pretty bad, especially if the 1 doesn't have any experience fighting (back) and the 3 do. I don't know what some of you are on to think that such a situation is all hunky dory and that he'd at worst escape with a few bruises. Seriously, just what the fuck? That's the kind of situation where, even if the bullies don't intend to, they can seriously injure, cripple for life, or even kill the target of their abuse. I also do not buy the whole "he was too young to have such responsibility" as that's plenty old enough to drive a car by one's self, so unless you're saying any accidents caused by a person of that same age should just be written off as "whoops, he didn't know any better so shouldn't get in any trouble" I expect you to re-evaluate your position.

So, now that hopefully the situation is clear, I'll continue. Outnumbered 3-1, not being able to escape, and wanting to avoid serious injury, Saavedra was left with no other option but to fight back. He first brandished the knife hoping that alone would make them stop, but they kept beating him. He stabbed Nuno, again hoping that would bring an end to the bodily harm being delivered unto him, but it didn't. So, left with no alternatives Saavedra continued to stab until he was no longer being punched. The fact that he stopped at that point and did not continue stabbing afterward the punches were no longer coming speaks a great deal to his self composure. If anything he should be commended for stopping when he did, delivering only the appropriate amount of force needed to ensure his own safety. This is something even well experienced soldiers and cops can have a hard time doing, especially when they've been struck in the head and are in a very desperate situation.

I agree that Nuno's death was tragic, but Nuno brought it on himself. He could have stopped at any point. He could have decided to not beat up Saavedra. He could have skipped the fight when Saavedra got off the bus early. He could have stopped when Saavedra tried to run away after being punched in the back of the head. He could have stopped when Saavedra pulled out a knife. He could have stopped when he got stabbed. He could have stopped even after multiple stabs. That he chose not too is entirely upon Nuno himself.
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Offline DasFuchs

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #82 on: January 09, 2012, 01:25:42 pm »
Yes, he was a bully. But bullying doesn't deserve the death penalty, thus he also didn't deserve being killed in self-defense.
...Seriously? Didn't deserve to be killed in self defence? Here's a crazy idea, if you don't want to be oh so undeservingly killed in self-defence, wait for it... Don't, along with several of your friends, try to kick the shit out of some kid for your own amusement. That way, get ready for this, he won't be in a position of either knife you or have ten shades of shit beaten out of him! Amazing, huh?

I'm not sure. I kinda agree with what was said here, especially since not only did the bully know he had a knife long before he took his fists to the kid, after being stabbed once he didn't say "Holy shit, I better back off, that hurt" and continued to pound on the kid.
I mean, if he'd backed away after being knifed, I'd say he wasn't asking for it. But no, he kept fighting the kid after being knifed again and again and even when down and done called on his buddies to rail on the kid.
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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #83 on: January 09, 2012, 10:40:11 pm »
Oriet said most of what I want to say, but at least one person has said "he wasn't a villain in some story."

Well, you know what? I find this claim interesting enough to give it a more thorough look. He's a trained fighter with a group of flunkies who targets people weaker than him because he can & is either too dumb or berserk to back off when his antagonism backfires on him. As a result, he ends up dead.

That kind of fucking sounds like a Disney villain to me. All that's missing is that he falls off of the roof in a last-ditch attempt to kill the hero. Or really just falls to his death under any circumstances.

On the other hand, a cartoon villain might have redeeming traits. Maybe he has a code of honor, or is a cultured strategist, or a well-intentioned extremist. At the very least, a bitching outfit & a well-earned position of authority. From what little we've heard of his parents, it doesn't even sound like he gets to claim an abusive home life.

So, what's funny is that he actually comes out less sympathetic than a cartoon villain.

Offline StallChaser

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #84 on: January 10, 2012, 06:15:03 am »
I don't think the victim made the right choice with the knife, but he was left few options.  Stabbing someone isn't acceptable, but neither is getting the shit beat out of you on a regular basis.
I want you to tell me what he should have done instead. That it was brought to the point of killing is horrible, but if the knife was not acceptable, what was acceptable?

It's hard to say without having been in the situation myself.  It could be dragging an important-looking person into the mess (forcing its resolution), causing some sort of ridiculous scene, or having a less deadly weapon that can still drive them away.  I'll admit, it is probable that every other option he could possibly think of was exhausted.  I probably should have said "ideal" instead of "acceptable".

Part of it also is that a knife is a big gamble -- if you're disarmed in the fight, you're as good as dead.

Offline DasFuchs

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #85 on: January 10, 2012, 08:34:52 am »
I'm fairly certain, given how they'd treated him to that point, he already saw it as life or death.
I'm not sure what type of less deadly weapon he'd be allowed to use. Tasers are adults only. Pepper spray at the ranges they were in would get him as much as the bully.
No disrespect, but I'm not sure what magical devices people are suppose to use in incidents like these. hell, the knife might not even have been a deadly weapon if Nuno had backed off after being knifed. hell, if getting knifed didn't stop him, I'm somehow doubting a "less than lethal" device would stand much more a chance.
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Offline sandman

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #86 on: January 10, 2012, 08:54:46 am »
I see nothing but victims here. A stupid boy who was killed by his own stupidity and a frightened, traumatized boy who will now have to live with killing. Classmates and family who have to deal with the death and the horror of their experiences.  I see no heroes, no victory. I see no villains, only foolishness and cruel stupidity on an epic scale. Only tragedy that the situation was allowed to deteriorate to this extent. There is nothing to celebrate here. There never was.
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Offline Scotsgit

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #87 on: January 10, 2012, 10:08:24 am »
I see nothing but victims here. A stupid boy who was killed by his own stupidity and a frightened, traumatized boy who will now have to live with killing. Classmates and family who have to deal with the death and the horror of their experiences.  I see no heroes, no victory. I see no villains, only foolishness and cruel stupidity on an epic scale. Only tragedy that the situation was allowed to deteriorate to this extent. There is nothing to celebrate here. There never was.

There is also the tragedy that a family who thought their son was a normal, well-adjusted boy was a bully who regularly targeted another kid.  I feel sorry for the parents trying to come to terms with that.
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Offline sandman

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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #88 on: January 10, 2012, 10:24:39 am »
I see nothing but victims here. A stupid boy who was killed by his own stupidity and a frightened, traumatized boy who will now have to live with killing. Classmates and family who have to deal with the death and the horror of their experiences.  I see no heroes, no victory. I see no villains, only foolishness and cruel stupidity on an epic scale. Only tragedy that the situation was allowed to deteriorate to this extent. There is nothing to celebrate here. There never was.

There is also the tragedy that a family who thought their son was a normal, well-adjusted boy was a bully who regularly targeted another kid.  I feel sorry for the parents trying to come to terms with that.

Exactly. These people are not only going to have to deal with the fact that their son died, but that he died essentially by his own actions, and those actions were cruel and horrible. There are no winners here.
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Re: Victim of bullying finally wins
« Reply #89 on: January 10, 2012, 10:30:58 am »
Sandman said what I wanted to say.

This isn't a 'win' for anyone. And this is coming from someone who has been bullied before and thought there was no other way except to fight back. Taking a human life is not a 'win' for the victim in any way whatsoever. He has to live with it. Forever.

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