FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: DasFuchs on January 08, 2012, 10:17:41 am
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Taken from Lulz
http://lulz.net/furi/res/1905018.html (http://lulz.net/furi/res/1905018.html) Possibly NSFW images in thread, be warned
-> The kid in the photo is a bully
-> He has goons
-> He constantly threatens a kid 2 years younger than him to beat him outside school
-> He and his goons finally chase this kid after school
-> Kid tries to avoid the fight not once, but two times (has witnesses)
-> Bully is determined to beat him up
-> Kid pulls out a knife and stabs bully 12 times, killing him.
-> Kid gets free of all charges under Florida's "stand your ground" law.
Link: http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jan/03/collier-judge-upholds-stand-your-ground-defense-ca/?partner=popular (http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/jan/03/collier-judge-upholds-stand-your-ground-defense-ca/?partner=popular)
My opinion on the matter? Good. One less scum bag to have the prison system support later in life
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stabbing the guy once probably would have been enough, bullies are cowards.
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I feel bad that not only the victim had to suffer being bullied, but that he had to resort to something like that to defend himself. Killing someone isn't easy, and I hope he gets the help he needs to deal with having done so. I'm ashamed of the adults affiliated with this for not intervening (meaningfully) earlier, and it's disgusting that society tolerates any of this to begin with. As for the bully...there is no excuse for his behavior, but 16 is an awful early age to die, especially for a situation that could have (and should have) been prevented.
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stabbing the guy once probably would have been enough, bullies are cowards.
I refer you to page 5. (http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/20111230150108.pdf)
That is when he reached in his pocket, bent forward and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Even after that, he heard Dylan Nuno telling his friends, "Go get him."
He wasn't going to stop. He was surrounded by his friends. He kept punching.
While I don't want to say he "deserved what he got" or anything, because death is always a serious thing, I'd like to point out that under the law, the guy was justified. Laws don't always pan out the way they are intended, and it doesn't matter: that's the way the law was written, and it applies to everyone. Everyone. If they didn't want people to be allowed to use deadly force in self-defense, then they should have made that a law. Just because the implications of that law allow someone to kill a bully doesn't mean that, in this case, the law shouldn't apply to him. That's not how laws work.
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What a tragedy.
But yes, the court is correct in recognizing self-defense and not prosecuting.
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oh
stabbing the guy once probably would have been enough, bullies are cowards.
I refer you to page 5. (http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/20111230150108.pdf)
That is when he reached in his pocket, bent forward and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Even after that, he heard Dylan Nuno telling his friends, "Go get him."
He wasn't going to stop. He was surrounded by his friends. He kept punching.
While I don't want to say he "deserved what he got" or anything, because death is always a serious thing, I'd like to point out that under the law, the guy was justified. Laws don't always pan out the way they are intended, and it doesn't matter: that's the way the law was written, and it applies to everyone. Everyone. If they didn't want people to be allowed to use deadly force in self-defense, then they should have made that a law. Just because the implications of that law allow someone to kill a bully doesn't mean that, in this case, the law shouldn't apply to him. That's not how laws work.
I wasn't saying anything about whether or not he should have been prosecuted, I was saying that Ii thought the force used was excessive, also I stand corrected, that's what I get or not reading the article
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That is when he reached in his pocket, bent forward and stabbed Dylan with his knife as the punches continued. Even after that, he heard Dylan Nuno telling his friends, "Go get him."
I think his friends deserve some type of punishment for propagating the bullying. >:(
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While I am upset that this kid died, I am glad that for once it was not the bullied child who died or committed suicide. This should serve as a vital lesson on the dangers of bullying.
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I was reading some of the off-site comments and see a lot of people saying that 12 stabbings was overkill. While I agree that, as a number, twelve stabbings was, indeed, overkill, it was also understandable given the circumstances and to those who say otherwise, I merely ask; "You've never been in a fight as a teenager, have you?"
When you're fourteen, your hormones are already completely out of whack and if you've never been trained for a fight, then you're gonna have an adrenalin rush that's gonna cloud judgement. Add in the thought of: "If I don't stop him, he is going to kill me" and you can see why the fucker got stabbed so many times.
Even with adult police officers, whom I hold to a higher standard as they should be trained to control these urges and keep a clear enough head in a fight to know when to stop, have had this happen. I remember hearing once about a cop who swore up and down that he only fired back at an attacking suspect two or three times and had no idea how his 15 round magazine got empty. Another cop thought there were beer cans flying past his face and only realized they were shells from the officer next to him when he saw "Federal" printed on the bottom of them.
You body can do all sorts of shit to you in a fight, so while 12 stabs can be considered excessive, they are also understandable.
That said, I have no sympathy for the bully. I've been bullied often in school, and all I can say is "Garbage in, garbage out."
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If schools actually dealt with bullies like they were suppose to, the death most like wouldn't not have happened.
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That said, I have no sympathy for the bully. I've been bullied often in school, and all I can say is "Garbage in, garbage out."
So people who are dicks in high school deserve to die, is what you're saying? I was bullied all through elementary school, still have social anxiety issues from/exacerbated by it, and no one deserves what this bully got. He had a family, friends, people who loved him. This is isn't a Stephen King novel, where the bullies are sociopaths who do things for teh evulz. He was a human being, and a kid (high school is old enough to understand right and wrong, but necessarily not shit like long term consequences)
This story just makes me uncomfortable. It sucks to be bullied, it is emotionally damaging far beyond the direct action...but this kid met an unarmed attacker with lethal force and murderous rage. And now he gets off completely scott free, not even a court appointed psychologist. What happens when a bullied kid brings a gun to school with him for self defense? What happens when a kid in a similar position decides he's had enough and doesn't wait to be attacked? It bugs me.
If schools actually dealt with bullies like they were suppose to, the death most like wouldn't not have happened.
If you read the article, you'd know the bullying primarily happened at their school bus stop, not actually anywhere near the school.
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Kit, from the article:
She added that Saavadra had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm.
That right there justifies lethal force.
There is also this:
Saavedra attempted to get away once, witnesses said. He then stabbed Dylan Nuno 12 times in the chest and abdomen. Two of the blows caused fatal wounds, including one that nicked his heart.
So, you have somebody who has good reason to think he's at risk of death or great bodily harm and who tried to retreat. His options are either to do fuck all and take the death or great bodily harm or he can return in kind of lethal force. This is a textbook example of when lethal force is allowable. To say he was in the wrong means that you are saying self defense is not allowable, which is absurd.
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Poor kid... killing is never easy. Whether the impact comes now or later, he'll have to deal with it, maybe for the rest of his life.
I'm not glad about this at all. I mean, I'm glad that the kid didn't go to jail over this, but that's the only thing I'm glad about.
The school should never have allowed this to happen. Any reasonable facility would have seen the signs long before this confrontation. And they would have stopped it.
I suppose the one positive thing about this is that only this happened, and not a school shooting.
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If you read the article, you'd know the bullying primarily happened at their school bus stop, not actually anywhere near the school.
The school could still do something about it, like report it to the police if it's not in school grounds. Furthermore, I meant that quote to be in a general sense. If schools were to make their campus less inviting to bullies, then the bullying would have been less likely to occur. It reduce the chances of this happening. (Notice how I said schools and didn't specify that school.)
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^And say what exactly? Even if the police decided to follow up on a random report of bullying on some street corner some where- the likely result would be the parents pressing charges against the school for siccing the police on their dear, sweet child. The problem isn't so much schools not doing anything. The problem is they can't. At least not without having lawsuits rammed up their rears by parents every step of the way. If one wants to see less of this nonsense, then legal authority needs to be given back to schools so they can deal with situations similar to this without worrying that doing so will kill their budgets for the next five years.
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If schools actually dealt with bullies like they were suppose to, the death most like wouldn't not have happened.
If you read the article, you'd know the bullying primarily happened at their school bus stop, not actually anywhere near the school.
Bus stops and busses count as school property and are under the school's jurisdiction.
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Bus stops and busses count as school property and are under the school's jurisdiction.
But there are no school personnel there to enforce any kind of rules, report an incident to, witness an incident, etc. Once you go back to the school the next day and report it, it becomes a your-word-against-theirs situation. A situation where the only recourse the school has is (because the school has no way of accurately determining which side is telling the whole truth) is to punish both people. I stand by the idea that there isn't much the school can do, short of following the kids home.
Vene: And I disagree with the judge. This is was a school bully in suburbia, not a bar fight with the hell's angels. Unless the kids involved were true sociopaths, I doubt the kid would have ended up with even a broken bone. I don't view taking someone's life as the appropriate response to being roughed up a bit.
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All death is a tragedy. But some deaths are more tragic than others. If, as the judge holds, Saavedra was at risk of death himself, then he did the right thing.
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Vene: And I disagree with the judge. This is was a school bully in suburbia, not a bar fight with the hell's angels.
You severely underestimate the harm that bullies can and DO cause to children.
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That said, I have no sympathy for the bully. I've been bullied often in school, and all I can say is "Garbage in, garbage out."
So people who are dicks in high school deserve to die, is what you're saying? I was bullied all through elementary school, still have social anxiety issues from/exacerbated by it, and no one deserves what this bully got. He had a family, friends, people who loved him. This is isn't a Stephen King novel, where the bullies are sociopaths who do things for teh evulz. He was a human being, and a kid (high school is old enough to understand right and wrong, but necessarily not shit like long term consequences)
This story just makes me uncomfortable. It sucks to be bullied, it is emotionally damaging far beyond the direct action...but this kid met an unarmed attacker with lethal force and murderous rage. And now he gets off completely scott free, not even a court appointed psychologist. What happens when a bullied kid brings a gun to school with him for self defense? What happens when a kid in a similar position decides he's had enough and doesn't wait to be attacked? It bugs me.
If schools actually dealt with bullies like they were suppose to, the death most like wouldn't not have happened.
If you read the article, you'd know the bullying primarily happened at their school bus stop, not actually anywhere near the school.
Uh, no, it happened on and off the bus, according to the article.
This went on for a long period of time. The kid was bullied to the extent he was doing all he could to avoid these pricks. After being threatened and assaulted, he struck back with a knife because three guys bigger than him were threatening to harm him, and given the punches to the back of the head, doing and outstanding job. I commend the kid for holding back as long as he did, till he had no other option. Stabbed the kid once and kept getting hit so he kept stabbing.
Tell me, what kind of punishment should the kid get for defending his life? What does that teach him? "Well, your life comes after others when they beat the hell out of you. You best be dead, then you can defend your life"?
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Does the kid have be dead before he can defend himself? Does have to have a broken limb? Bullies are capable of going to those extents, Kit.
Obviously it's a tragedy. Ideally the bully should have lived. No one is celebrating the death. What people are saying is that it was a justifiable form of defense. The victim felt his life was threaten.
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Well glad you guys aren't doing in this topic what a few guys at the Allspark are doing.
Ironbite-which is condoning the kid who did it and saying there were other ways.
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Well glad you guys aren't doing in this topic what a few guys at the Allspark are doing.
Ironbite-which is condoning the kid who did it and saying there were other ways.
Do you mean condemning?
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Tell me, what kind of punishment should the kid get for defending his life? What does that teach him? "Well, your life comes after others when they beat the hell out of you. You best be dead, then you can defend your life"?
Fucking psychological counseling, court appointed and monitored. He flew into a rage (motivated by self defense, but 12 stab wounds - two fatal, including a nick to the heart - doesn't scream "in control") and killed another human being. He met force with an escalation of force. Letting him off without so much as "here see a shrink" sends the message "if you're being bullied at school, kill that mother fucker, no questions asked".
Does the kid have be dead before he can defend himself? Does have to have a broken limb? Bullies are capable of going to those extents, Kit.
Some are, yes. There are always sociopaths and sadists out there. But it seems to me that the vast majority of school age harassment and bullying comes from alpha male macho bullshit, not homicidal tendencies.
Obviously it's a tragedy. Ideally the bully should have lived. No one is celebrating the death. What people are saying is that it was a justifiable form of defense. The victim felt his life was threaten.
Bullshit! Reread the title of this fucking thread! Reread the OP! Reread the post I initially quoted! This kid "won"! He killed "garbage", a "scum bag", did the world a favor! That's not disturbing in the least to you? A god damned seventeen year old is dead because he was a total asshole...in high school. That's not cause for celebration.
And not for nothing, but my friend has a $10 thing of pepper spray that fits on her key chain. While he had every right to defend himself, going all stabbity was not his only nor was it his best option.
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He flew into a rage (motivated by self defense, but 12 stab wounds - two fatal, including a nick to the heart - doesn't scream "in control")
Uh...
Dude, the bully was BEATING HIM AT THE TIME.
As in, continuing to swing punches.
At that point, it was "stab until it stops or be beaten until YOU stop"
What the fuck dude?
As for your insane windmill problem with the title, have you been living under a rock!?
In this country, victims of bullies have been consistently been blamed for BEING bullied. Being expelled from school for shoving away the bully beating them to a pulp, while said bully gets a three day vacation from school in the form of a suspension.
The victory isn't him killing the bully, the victory is the fact that the victim, for once, DIDN'T GET FUCKING BLAMED.
Now, get the fuck off of your tin high horse, bucko.
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Clearly the attack was in self-defence. But no child should ever be put in a position where they must cause serious harm or death to prevent serious harm to themselves. Forget the school, where were the police?
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Bus stops and busses count as school property and are under the school's jurisdiction.
But there are no school personnel there to enforce any kind of rules, report an incident to, witness an incident, etc.
Bus drivers are considered school personnel. There can also be security cameras on the buses to at least determine who talked to whom. Even then, it doesn't matter. It's still a school matter, and just because a teacher isn't there doesn't mean it isn't their prerogative to provide a safe environment for their students. If a teacher needs to be an eyewitness, then we might as well give up anti-bullying policies right now. The entire point of bullying is to go as far as you can without being stopped, and having a teacher see you defeats that purpose.
Tell me, what kind of punishment should the kid get for defending his life? What does that teach him? "Well, your life comes after others when they beat the hell out of you. You best be dead, then you can defend your life"?
Fucking psychological counseling, court appointed and monitored. He flew into a rage (motivated by self defense, but 12 stab wounds - two fatal, including a nick to the heart - doesn't scream "in control") and killed another human being. He met force with an escalation of force. Letting him off without so much as "here see a shrink" sends the message "if you're being bullied at school, kill that mother fucker, no questions asked".
No, it says, "If you are in fear of your life, you are allowed to defend yourself with lethal force." If you take issue with that, that's another issue entirely, but to say he can't because he's a child is stupid.
And not for nothing, but my friend has a $10 thing of pepper spray that fits on her key chain. While he had every right to defend himself, going all stabbity was not his only nor was it his best option.
It is more legal to carry a knife than pepper spray. At my school, every sort of weapon was illegal, including pepper spray and mace. You could carry a knife if it was smaller than the palm of your hand. For him, that was the only option.
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Obviously it's a tragedy. Ideally the bully should have lived. No one is celebrating the death. What people are saying is that it was a justifiable form of defense. The victim felt his life was threaten.
Bullshit! Reread the title of this fucking thread! Reread the OP! Reread the post I initially quoted! This kid "won"! He killed "garbage", a "scum bag", did the world a favor! That's not disturbing in the least to you? A god damned seventeen year old is dead because he was a total asshole...in high school. That's not cause for celebration.
Here I'll let others tell it you:
The victory isn't him killing the bully, the victory is the fact that the victim, for once, DIDN'T GET FUCKING BLAMED.
There were several people who said that the killing was a tragedy. I don't know where you come off claiming we all celebrated it. If you have beef with the tone of the OP then take it with him. (and I didn't think he was celebrating it - more like he saying there is a message that bullying will not be tolerated it.)
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What I find most astonishing is that in total defiance of all the testimony and evidence to the contrary, the deceased's friends and family continue to insist that he was not a bully. If systematically taunting another student, following him off the bus, punching him in the back of the head, getting your friends to surround him, and then proceeding to beat the shit out of him for no reason isn't "bullying," then what is?
I was a bully in school. Gonna admit it right off the bat. Came from the side of Inverness you don't want to be from if money is something you find desirable, and in Scotland the divisions in school have always been economic. I was a big lad, 6 foot on my 13th birthday, with big hands and my first 'stache sprouted in 7th grade. People just assumed I was a bully, and so a bully I became, mostly out of anger, jealousy, and a burning embarrassment at being so much larger than the other kids. (Hell, I was bigger than most of the teachers.) I figured "bully" was a better label than "victim," and "Beinn" was a better nickname than "fatty." I wised up eventually, realized what an utter cock I was being to a great many people, and I cut the shit out.
Not every bully deserves death. Most are just screwed up kids that will, in time, straighten the hell up.
Quick edit: "Beinn" is a school nickname I will NOT abide being called now. Beinn was an asshole and an utter dick, and I am not that person anymore. Just a quick FYI. I prefer the nickname I had in the BAF: "Kilderkin."
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Horrible all around. I think something should've been done before it escalated to that point. But I don't blame the kid. @Kit, of course he wasn't in control. He was most likely terrified, high on adrenaline, with no way out. And when even when he stabbed the bully, it didn't stop. Of course he lost control, and it's horrid. But in the same situation, I think most people would've reacted the same way. The only thing he needs a shrink for, imo, is to deal with any potential guilt over killing another person.
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Cry about it. As the old adage goes, "He didn't start the fight, but he damn well finished it."
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I will never celebrate the death of a human being. I didn't even cheer when bin Laden was shot. (I remember thinking three things: "How regrettable that this was necessary," "Thank God that there are brave young men and women willing to do this horrible, regrettable but necessary job,"and "The crowds of people in the streets in the USA cheering bin Laden's death look exactly like the crowds of people in the streets in the Middle East cheering 9/11.")
I especially will not celebrate the death of a child. Bullies are dicks, and justly deserve appropriate consequences, but they do not deserve to die for it. (And it is true that no one has ever come up with a truly effective anti-bullying method in American schools. Which is a tragedy.) And while the title of this thread could be interpreted as celebrating the actions of the victim in this case, I'm not going to put words in the OP's mouth. In a nutshell, this entire scenario is a disaster for everyone concerned. There were no "winners" here. Not the victim, who is dead, nor the witnesses, who now have to deal with witnessing a bloody killing, nor the defendant, who must now somehow deal with being a killer.
I do not know if I ever killed anyone in NI. I certainly shot at a lot of IRA, and tried my best to hit them, and I'm pretty sure I did on more than one occasion, but I have no idea if they died as a result of my actions. And despite that.....I struggle emotionally today with the idea that I might have killed someone, and for no other reason than that my government disagreed with his politics. This young lad now has to deal emotionally with the quite literal blood on his hands. It sounds from the article like he was a bit of a sensitive sort (as most victims of bullying are), and I wish him the best in coming to terms with this.
In the end....nothing but a horrible tragedy for everyone. Perhaps the acquittal prevented further destruction and tragedy. I have no idea. Let us hope so.
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I do not know if I ever killed anyone in NI. I certainly shot at a lot of IRA, and tried my best to hit them, and I'm pretty sure I did on more than one occasion, but I have no idea if they died as a result of my actions. And despite that.....I struggle emotionally today with the idea that I might have killed someone, and for no other reason than that my government disagreed with his politics.
Out of interest, why did you join the army in the first place, Sandman? (or was there a draft, I don't know).
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I just figured I'd counterbalance Kit's semantics & over-emotional reaction with my own lack of concern & bluntness. Of course the victim is personally invested in the situation, but from my perspective, I have nothing to "celebrate" or "mourn." Shit went down & reached its logical conclusion. Who the fuck really cares what the title of the thread is?
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Good on the kid. Bully deserved what he got. Bastard
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And just when I think people aren't as stupid as some Transformers fans....Kit proves me wrong.
Ironbite-Kit do you post as member0 over at the Allspark?
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Vene: And I disagree with the judge. This is was a school bully in suburbia, not a bar fight with the hell's angels. Unless the kids involved were true sociopaths, I doubt the kid would have ended up with even a broken bone. I don't view taking someone's life as the appropriate response to being roughed up a bit.
I trust the judge over you. Being attacked by multiple people is fucking dangerous, far more than your belittling "roughed up," and it is a legitimate threat to one's safety and potentially life. Responding with a weapon is appropriate, as is continuing to attack with said weapon until the threat is no longer a threat. Considering how fast people can stab with a knife, 12 hits really is not that much.
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I do not know if I ever killed anyone in NI. I certainly shot at a lot of IRA, and tried my best to hit them, and I'm pretty sure I did on more than one occasion, but I have no idea if they died as a result of my actions. And despite that.....I struggle emotionally today with the idea that I might have killed someone, and for no other reason than that my government disagreed with his politics.
Out of interest, why did you join the army in the first place, Sandman? (or was there a draft, I don't know).
Economic necessity. Blue collar, laborer family, unemployment in Inverness in the 70s was horrible, no real opportunities. After I served I went to university on what I managed to save from my pay billet.
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Ah, the old poverty draft. Gotta love the British.
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Good on the kid. Bully deserved what he got. Bastard
He deserved to die for being a 17 year old asshole? Seriously?
And just when I think people aren't as stupid as some Transformers fans....Kit proves me wrong.
I'm stupid...for not believing that being a bully is worthy of the death penalty? For not finding a damn worth celebrating in the death of a kid? For thinking that, maybe, there's a better solution to being bullied than carrying a knife and stabbing a mother fucker in the heart?
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Ah, the old poverty draft. Gotta love the British.
Well, the Poverty Draft is quite popular in the States, too, you know. Armed Forces recruiters almost exclusively visit inner-city and rural high schools.
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ITT: Kit Walker completely ignores 95% of all points made against him to focus on one of three posts that he's capable of tackling.
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I'm stupid...for not believing that being a bully is worthy of the death penalty?
No, you aren't. I, for one, happen to agree that a bully doesn't deserve death for being a bully if that's any consolation. An ass kicking most probably, but not death. Remember that a lot of people here at FSTDT feel very strongly about people being victimized, and have very strong reactions to stories about such things. Many valued and intelligent FSTDTers have experienced such torments firsthand for various reasons, or have close friends and loved ones who have, and there are fierce emotional connotations to events like these. Try to be understanding.
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Ah, the old poverty draft. Gotta love the British.
Well, the Poverty Draft is quite popular in the States, too, you know. Armed Forces recruiters almost exclusively visit inner-city and rural high schools.
Not so much Australia though, thank Christ. Our army is very small, not even a division.
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Fucking psychological counseling, court appointed and monitored. He flew into a rage (motivated by self defense, but 12 stab wounds - two fatal, including a nick to the heart - doesn't scream "in control") and killed another human being. He met force with an escalation of force. Letting him off without so much as "here see a shrink" sends the message "if you're being bullied at school, kill that mother fucker, no questions asked".
Really?! I mean fucking really?! This kid gets in a fight after trying to escape it several times and has three much larger guys breathing down on him after threats like "Today's the day" and "Better watch your back" and "He's in a rage"? He even showed the weapon once to them to convince them to leave him alone. He was fretting for his life. These guys obviously meant him harm as the fists bouncing off his head confirmed to the point he was losing fucking consciousness. He defended his life with one jab and still this kid kept swinging so he kept stabbing to end the fucking threat.
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I'm stupid...for not believing that being a bully is worthy of the death penalty?
No, you aren't. I, for one, happen to agree that a bully doesn't deserve death for being a bully if that's any consolation. An ass kicking most probably, but not death. Remember that a lot of people here at FSTDT feel very strongly about people being victimized, and have very strong reactions to stories about such things. Many valued and intelligent FSTDTers have experienced such torments firsthand for various reasons, or have close friends and loved ones who have, and there are fierce emotional connotations to events like these. Try to be understanding.
It really grates on me when someone actually blames a victim for something they can't control. Is it sad someone died? Yes. Am I gonna celebrate it? No. Am I gonna go "oh well he should've done X different"? FUCK NO!
Ironbite-but that's just me.
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Good on the kid. Bully deserved what he got. Bastard
He deserved to die for being a 17 year old asshole? Seriously?
And just when I think people aren't as stupid as some Transformers fans....Kit proves me wrong.
I'm stupid...for not believing that being a bully is worthy of the death penalty? For not finding a damn worth celebrating in the death of a kid? For thinking that, maybe, there's a better solution to being bullied than carrying a knife and stabbing a mother fucker in the heart?
Sounded more like deciding that this kid shouldn't defend himself and that because he did, now has to be punished because he "went into a rage"
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About the only thing I can agree with Kit about is psychological counseling. But not because of him flying into a rage, but to make sure he doesn't develop PTSD and if he does to make sure it gets treated.
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I'm clearly in the minority opinion here. I've said my piece. I've been called names. I'll just call this a loss and move the fuck on. I admit my response is mostly emotional. I feel for anyone who gets bullied, I got bullied too. I got called names, got threatened, all that fun stuff. From the time I was 8 up to about 16. I have massive social anxiety issues that I attribute to that treatment. But a lot of people I considered assholes, bullies, people who made my life downright unpleasant? They've grown up to be average, generally law abiding college students. Not a god damned one of them deserved to die for their behavior.
I think this kid could have found a better way to handle the situation. Borrow a cell phone, buy cheap pepper spray (yes, a school would prohibit it but any knife capable of nicking the heart probably violates school regulation too), not leave school, punch the kid in the throat (yes, it could kill too, I know)...I don't know. Maybe it was the only answer he could see. But stabbing a person in the heart...that can't be the absolute best answer to a high school fight.
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I'm clearly in the minority opinion here.
Hey, maybe you could try actually reading all of the posts in the thread?
You've addressed nothing actually said towards you.
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What I find stupid is your trivialization of the issue & the ridiculous standards to which you're holding the victim. It's all harmless horse play until the fight goes farther than that "17 year old dumbass" anticipated & someone ends up dead. But there's absolutely no chance of that ha--oh yeah.
Honestly, even WITH a knife, people lose fights with ONE assailant, let alone a whole gang, & you expect him to...borrow a cell phone? For what, calling his mom?
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how you expect a teenager to "find a better way to handle the situation" in the middle of a gang of bullies while being beaten up i don't know, not much you can do in that situation, especially after the first stab didn't deter the guy. It's tragic, and things shouldn't have gone that far, but it's not the kid's fault they did.
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Of course the kid didn't deserve to die. I agree with that. I'm going to use an analogy from one of my favorite books, that a counselor used with a victim of bullying who killed his attacker: if a kid deliberately scared some horses, and they stampeded and trampled him to death, the horses are not at fault. The kid is. No, he didn't deserve death, but that doesn't mean it wasn't his own damn fault. saying the bullying victim should've found a better way kind of sounds like blaming him for the incident. He didn't start the fight, he obviously didn't mean it to go that far, and I highly doubt he stabbed the other kid in the heart on purpose. It was, from what I read in the article, pure survival instinct.
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The bully absolutely did not deserve to die. However, the kid being beat up had a right to defend himself. I'm glad the courts didn't go after him. As others have said, the tragedy here is that the situation wasn't resolved long before it escalated to that point. There needs to be an investigation into why the school didn't do anything prior to this situation, and if they couldn't, what can be done to give them the ability to deal with these situations. I'm upset both for Nuno for dying over this, and for Saavedra for having to kill someone to defend himself. The focus now needs to be how to prevent this from happening in the future.
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What I find stupid is your trivialization of the issue & the ridiculous standards to which you're holding the victim. It's all harmless horse play until the fight goes farther than that "17 year old dumbass" anticipated & someone ends up dead. But there's absolutely no chance of that ha--oh yeah.
Honestly, even WITH a knife, people lose fights with ONE assailant, let alone a whole gang, & you expect him to...borrow a cell phone? For what, calling his mom?
Oh, but he could have magiced up some pepper spray.
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Or a taser.
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WAIT! I GET IT NOW! HE USES THE PHONE TO CALL PEPPER SPRAY COP!
WHY AM I YELLING?!
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Because we all know it's easier for a teenager to get pepper spray than to get a knife. And pepper spray is totally the best option for deterring someone from using lethal force on you. Totally. Because lethal force should be met with something that will cause pain to the person using it and still risk not doing anything to stop the fucker trying to kill them.
Wait, given getting stabbed tends to fucking hurt maybe pepper spray would have been a less than effective tactic.
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Nuno was an asshole, but I feel bad for his family who will have to suffer because of him being an asshole.
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Nuno was an asshole, but I feel bad for his family who will have to suffer because of him being an asshole.
I find the family more assholish then the kid. It's obvious from the article that their "precious" can do no wrong and totally didn't bully anyone.
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People don't win in fights against a group so much as survive them unless they're REALLY good.
Get the kid who defended himself help for any trauma from this.
The issue I have was that it never should have gotten this far in the first place. I hope the school staff wake the fuck up after this, and realize that it ain't all hunky-dory over there. Even if the incident took place at the bus stop (which it did), someone was napping. Someone had to hear something.
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I find the family more assholish then the kid. It's obvious from the article that their "precious" can do no wrong and totally didn't bully anyone.
They're mourning. Everyone speaks sunshine and roses about the recently deceased.
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See, I absolutely have sympathy for Nuno. Kids are idiots. They have no idea what their priorities should be, they think the approval of their peers means everything, and they think they're immortal. They have to learn that that's all bullshit. Like Sandman said, just because someone's a moron when they're a kid doesn't mean they won't grow up to be a decent adult. It's the responsibility of the adults around them to keep them under control and show them how they're supposed to act. That obviously didn't happen here. And that's the tragedy here.
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The bully absolutely did not deserve to die. However, the kid being beat up had a right to defend himself. I'm glad the courts didn't go after him. As others have said, the tragedy here is that the situation wasn't resolved long before it escalated to that point. There needs to be an investigation into why the school didn't do anything prior to this situation, and if they couldn't, what can be done to give them the ability to deal with these situations. I'm upset both for Nuno for dying over this, and for Saavedra for having to kill someone to defend himself. The focus now needs to be how to prevent this from happening in the future.
Well, the court papers and such say it was bullying on the bus (which I know from experience rarely gets any attention) and off the bus well out of range of the driver after he's pulled away or any "school official" at the stop itself. Fearing the situation would escalate he never took the problem to any teachers because honestly, what's the most they'd do? I'm guessing talk to the bullying kid cause bullying is bad, m'kay which would do nothing to change the outcome.
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Nothing whatsoever of value was lost.
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So I don't know if any of you guys paid any attention to the comments, but we have this facepalm worthy post from them.
Stand your ground shouldn't apply here.. this is sending a message that if you're too big of a girl to fight after school, just kill whoever's about to kick your a--, and you'll get out of it...
All the fights after school I've been in, and witnessed, arrested or not, were never a felony charge. It's a little fight.. Glad to see our justice system still sucks heading into 2012
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So I don't know if any of you guys paid any attention to the comments, but we have this facepalm worthy post from them.
Stand your ground shouldn't apply here.. this is sending a message that if you're too big of a girl to fight after school, just kill whoever's about to kick your a--, and you'll get out of it...
All the fights after school I've been in, and witnessed, arrested or not, were never a felony charge. It's a little fight.. Glad to see our justice system still sucks heading into 2012
Ah yes, battle cry of a seasoned bully! What ignorant pigs like the original poster of your quote don't realize, is that some people can't play fisticuffs with others because they actually have more to their lives than looking for the next victim. So when backed into a corner they have no idea what to do or how to 'properly' defend themselves from their tormentors.
Any loss of life is tragic, but I can't help but feel there isn't a major loss here. People like this Nuno only progress into a more cruel and violent nature, and it was only a matter of time till he and his thugs seriously injured this kid. This really was a case of kill or be killed.
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I personally laughed at the one claiming there were "rules" to bully fights. But then it was DK, and he's kinda known as the lulz version of Skyfire
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Good on the kid. Bully deserved what he got. Bastard
Nothing whatsoever of value was lost.
No. You're reducing him to being a bully. But Nuno was more than that. He wasn't an antagonist in a story with nothing more to him than his role. He was a human, a teen, he had a family, he went to school, he had hobbies, and all that was lost when he was killed. Being a bully doesn't invalidate all this.
Yes, he was a bully. But bullying doesn't deserve the death penalty, thus he also didn't deserve being killed in self-defense.
He was at fault, but that fault stood in no relation to the severity of the consequences.
To quote the lawyer: a tragedy all the way around.
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To quote the lawyer: a tragedy all the way around.
+1
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No. You're reducing him to being a bully. But Nuno was more than that. He wasn't an antagonist in a story with nothing more to him than his role. He was a human, a teen, he had a family, he went to school, he had hobbies, and all that was lost when he was killed. Being a bully doesn't invalidate all this.
Yes, he was a bully. But bullying doesn't deserve the death penalty, thus he also didn't deserve being killed in self-defense.
He was at fault, but that fault stood in no relation to the severity of the consequences.
To quote the lawyer: a tragedy all the way around.
This really, I mean holy shit people.
I was bullied as much as anyone else on these damn forums and even when I damn well knew I could get a knife I didn't consider it. One beating, hell a hundred beatings isn't worth someone else's life. At least that why a few idiots I grew up with lived long enough to kill themselves stupidly. Maybe being stabbed yourself colors your opinion on such things.
It's not like anything I can say can change what the kid did, and it really is a matter of opinion on what someone else's life is worth, but anyone out there considering emulating the kid better be aware that a different judge may well see things completely differently even in the same area. Elsewhere it's a good chance of winding up with manslaughter at least.
And a bit on the thread topic, winning against a bully involves them pissing themselves and running away, this kid shat himself and died. Difference there.
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No. You're reducing him to being a bully. But Nuno was more than that. He wasn't an antagonist in a story with nothing more to him than his role. He was a human, a teen, he had a family, he went to school, he had hobbies, and all that was lost when he was killed. Being a bully doesn't invalidate all this.
Almost every asshole in history has had at least some people that have liked them. It doesn't mean they weren't assholes. Most assholes don't deserve to die, but literally millions of people on this earth die every year that deserve more sympathy than this guy.
Yes, he was a bully. But bullying doesn't deserve the death penalty, thus he also didn't deserve being killed in self-defense.
He was at fault, but that fault stood in no relation to the severity of the consequences.
To quote the lawyer: a tragedy all the way around.
Nobody is saying we should celebrate his death, or that it isn't in some small way, tragic, but there's only so much sympathy to go around. He beat the shit out of this kid regularly, and was about to engage in a 3-on-1 beatdown for who knows how long. And even after his victim pulled out the knife, he continued to escalate the fight. As horrible as the consequences were, at every step, he was the one who chose to escalate the situation that led to his own death. He could have stopped at any point along the way.
I don't think the victim made the right choice with the knife, but he was left few options. Stabbing someone isn't acceptable, but neither is getting the shit beat out of you on a regular basis.
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This is why the administration needs to stop looking away with the bullying. I'm not siding with the bullied kid, but those in desparate times will resort to extreme measures.
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Came from the side of Inverness you don't want to be from if money is something you find desirable,
Beauly? :P
and in Scotland the divisions in school have always been economic.
Depends - in places like Raintown*, there's also Sectarianism.
*Glasgow: One of its unaffectionate nicknames.
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I find the family more assholish then the kid. It's obvious from the article that their "precious" can do no wrong and totally didn't bully anyone.
They're mourning. Everyone speaks sunshine and roses about the recently deceased.
And he was their son: Parents being told that their son/daughter is or was a bully will resolutely refuse to believe it, it's easier for them to think that someone else was bullying their child, rather than think that their child was a bully. It makes them feel that they have somehow failed.
This isn't to excuse Nuno, just as a way of explanation.
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Yes, he was a bully. But bullying doesn't deserve the death penalty, thus he also didn't deserve being killed in self-defense.
...Seriously? Didn't deserve to be killed in self defence? Here's a crazy idea, if you don't want to be oh so undeservingly killed in self-defence, wait for it... Don't, along with several of your friends, try to kick the shit out of some kid for your own amusement. That way, get ready for this, he won't be in a position of either knife you or have ten shades of shit beaten out of him! Amazing, huh?
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I don't think the victim made the right choice with the knife, but he was left few options. Stabbing someone isn't acceptable, but neither is getting the shit beat out of you on a regular basis.
I want you to tell me what he should have done instead. That it was brought to the point of killing is horrible, but if the knife was not acceptable, what was acceptable?
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Art, no one was saying that this asshole kid was right or justified in his bullying. No one is disputing that he deserved consequences for his actions. Serious consequences. Bullying like this is a curse on American (and all) youth. No one is denying that the primary cause of the death was the bully, not the victim. No one is saying that the victim had no right to defend himself, obviously he was horribly provoked. It's tragic he felt he had no choice but to arm himself with a deadly weapon, that he believed he had no other options, no where to turn, no one to turn to. No one is saying that this idiot bully didn't bring it on himself.
People are just saying that, generally speaking, bullying is not a transgression worthy of death. Try to understand their point of view. Many teens are short-sighted fools who believe themselves immortal and half the time don't think for a second about how what they are doing is unbelievably stupid. Most bullies are just immature idiots, not psychopaths. I can certainly imagine a situation where the bully turned out to be a true psychopath bent on killing the victim and thus the victim had no choice but to respond with deadly force. Not being in full possession of all of the facts in this case, I can't say if that was the reality or not. This could have been a true psychotic preying on a weaker student who was forced to defend his own life with deadly force. Or it could have been a tragic event where a run-of-the-mill bully stupidly and cruelly pushed some kid so far that the victim, in terror and desperation, responded with deadly force. I make no blanket judgments based on the paltry information I possess about this occurrence.
I think what people are objecting to is the blanket attitude that bullies deserve death.
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To quote the lawyer: a tragedy all the way around.
+1
Ditto. The circumstances surrounding his death aren't going to make this loss any less painful for his family and friends, regardless of whether or not one feels this was a justifiable homicide. In light of that, it's rather difficult to be cavalier about his death.
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So I don't know if any of you guys paid any attention to the comments, but we have this facepalm worthy post from them.
Stand your ground shouldn't apply here.. this is sending a message that if you're too big of a girl to fight after school, just kill whoever's about to kick your a--, and you'll get out of it...
All the fights after school I've been in, and witnessed, arrested or not, were never a felony charge. It's a little fight.. Glad to see our justice system still sucks heading into 2012
Uh I remember reading that same comment when this was posted on another site.
Typical macho bully.
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Art, no one was saying that this asshole kid was right or justified in his bullying. No one is disputing that he deserved consequences for his actions. Serious consequences. Bullying like this is a curse on American (and all) youth. No one is denying that the primary cause of the death was the bully, not the victim. No one is saying that the victim had no right to defend himself, obviously he was horribly provoked. It's tragic he felt he had no choice but to arm himself with a deadly weapon, that he believed he had no other options, no where to turn, no one to turn to. No one is saying that this idiot bully didn't bring it on himself.
People are just saying that, generally speaking, bullying is not a transgression worthy of death. Try to understand their point of view. Many teens are short-sighted fools who believe themselves immortal and half the time don't think for a second about how what they are doing is unbelievably stupid. Most bullies are just immature idiots, not psychopaths. I can certainly imagine a situation where the bully turned out to be a true psychopath bent on killing the victim and thus the victim had no choice but to respond with deadly force. Not being in full possession of all of the facts in this case, I can't say if that was the reality or not. This could have been a true psychotic preying on a weaker student who was forced to defend his own life with deadly force. Or it could have been a tragic event where a run-of-the-mill bully stupidly and cruelly pushed some kid so far that the victim, in terror and desperation, responded with deadly force. I make no blanket judgments based on the paltry information I possess about this occurrence.
I think what people are objecting to is the blanket attitude that bullies deserve death.
I'm not saying all of them necessarily do. It's more that if you decide to physically attack someone, purely for your own amusement, no less, then you'll get no sympathy whatsoever from me if the victim responds with deadly force.
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I believe the judge was right with their ruling, that given the circumstance the kid had little to no choice in defending himself. That the bully died is tragic, but entirely his own fault. Saavedra had been the target of Nuno's bullying for a long time, and he constantly tried to avoid and get away from it. Saavedra knew what Nuno and his pals were capable of, and he also knew they kept escalating it.
Saavedra knew a severe beating was going to be taking place because it was being announced, and so he took action to avoid it by getting off the bus several stops early. Unfortunately it did not work, as Nuno and his pals, intent on bullying Saavedra, followed him off of the bus then. He was still intent on avoiding being beaten and getting away when Nuno hit him in the back of the fucking head. Even with that Saavedra tried to get away. Nuno and his goons still came after him, all of them attacking.
Being outnumbered 3 to 1 in a fistfight is pretty bad, especially if the 1 doesn't have any experience fighting (back) and the 3 do. I don't know what some of you are on to think that such a situation is all hunky dory and that he'd at worst escape with a few bruises. Seriously, just what the fuck? That's the kind of situation where, even if the bullies don't intend to, they can seriously injure, cripple for life, or even kill the target of their abuse. I also do not buy the whole "he was too young to have such responsibility" as that's plenty old enough to drive a car by one's self, so unless you're saying any accidents caused by a person of that same age should just be written off as "whoops, he didn't know any better so shouldn't get in any trouble" I expect you to re-evaluate your position.
So, now that hopefully the situation is clear, I'll continue. Outnumbered 3-1, not being able to escape, and wanting to avoid serious injury, Saavedra was left with no other option but to fight back. He first brandished the knife hoping that alone would make them stop, but they kept beating him. He stabbed Nuno, again hoping that would bring an end to the bodily harm being delivered unto him, but it didn't. So, left with no alternatives Saavedra continued to stab until he was no longer being punched. The fact that he stopped at that point and did not continue stabbing afterward the punches were no longer coming speaks a great deal to his self composure. If anything he should be commended for stopping when he did, delivering only the appropriate amount of force needed to ensure his own safety. This is something even well experienced soldiers and cops can have a hard time doing, especially when they've been struck in the head and are in a very desperate situation.
I agree that Nuno's death was tragic, but Nuno brought it on himself. He could have stopped at any point. He could have decided to not beat up Saavedra. He could have skipped the fight when Saavedra got off the bus early. He could have stopped when Saavedra tried to run away after being punched in the back of the head. He could have stopped when Saavedra pulled out a knife. He could have stopped when he got stabbed. He could have stopped even after multiple stabs. That he chose not too is entirely upon Nuno himself.
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Yes, he was a bully. But bullying doesn't deserve the death penalty, thus he also didn't deserve being killed in self-defense.
...Seriously? Didn't deserve to be killed in self defence? Here's a crazy idea, if you don't want to be oh so undeservingly killed in self-defence, wait for it... Don't, along with several of your friends, try to kick the shit out of some kid for your own amusement. That way, get ready for this, he won't be in a position of either knife you or have ten shades of shit beaten out of him! Amazing, huh?
I'm not sure. I kinda agree with what was said here, especially since not only did the bully know he had a knife long before he took his fists to the kid, after being stabbed once he didn't say "Holy shit, I better back off, that hurt" and continued to pound on the kid.
I mean, if he'd backed away after being knifed, I'd say he wasn't asking for it. But no, he kept fighting the kid after being knifed again and again and even when down and done called on his buddies to rail on the kid.
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Oriet said most of what I want to say, but at least one person has said "he wasn't a villain in some story."
Well, you know what? I find this claim interesting enough to give it a more thorough look. He's a trained fighter with a group of flunkies who targets people weaker than him because he can & is either too dumb or berserk to back off when his antagonism backfires on him. As a result, he ends up dead.
That kind of fucking sounds like a Disney villain to me. All that's missing is that he falls off of the roof in a last-ditch attempt to kill the hero. Or really just falls to his death under any circumstances.
On the other hand, a cartoon villain might have redeeming traits. Maybe he has a code of honor, or is a cultured strategist, or a well-intentioned extremist. At the very least, a bitching outfit & a well-earned position of authority. From what little we've heard of his parents, it doesn't even sound like he gets to claim an abusive home life.
So, what's funny is that he actually comes out less sympathetic than a cartoon villain.
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I don't think the victim made the right choice with the knife, but he was left few options. Stabbing someone isn't acceptable, but neither is getting the shit beat out of you on a regular basis.
I want you to tell me what he should have done instead. That it was brought to the point of killing is horrible, but if the knife was not acceptable, what was acceptable?
It's hard to say without having been in the situation myself. It could be dragging an important-looking person into the mess (forcing its resolution), causing some sort of ridiculous scene, or having a less deadly weapon that can still drive them away. I'll admit, it is probable that every other option he could possibly think of was exhausted. I probably should have said "ideal" instead of "acceptable".
Part of it also is that a knife is a big gamble -- if you're disarmed in the fight, you're as good as dead.
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I'm fairly certain, given how they'd treated him to that point, he already saw it as life or death.
I'm not sure what type of less deadly weapon he'd be allowed to use. Tasers are adults only. Pepper spray at the ranges they were in would get him as much as the bully.
No disrespect, but I'm not sure what magical devices people are suppose to use in incidents like these. hell, the knife might not even have been a deadly weapon if Nuno had backed off after being knifed. hell, if getting knifed didn't stop him, I'm somehow doubting a "less than lethal" device would stand much more a chance.
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I see nothing but victims here. A stupid boy who was killed by his own stupidity and a frightened, traumatized boy who will now have to live with killing. Classmates and family who have to deal with the death and the horror of their experiences. I see no heroes, no victory. I see no villains, only foolishness and cruel stupidity on an epic scale. Only tragedy that the situation was allowed to deteriorate to this extent. There is nothing to celebrate here. There never was.
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I see nothing but victims here. A stupid boy who was killed by his own stupidity and a frightened, traumatized boy who will now have to live with killing. Classmates and family who have to deal with the death and the horror of their experiences. I see no heroes, no victory. I see no villains, only foolishness and cruel stupidity on an epic scale. Only tragedy that the situation was allowed to deteriorate to this extent. There is nothing to celebrate here. There never was.
There is also the tragedy that a family who thought their son was a normal, well-adjusted boy was a bully who regularly targeted another kid. I feel sorry for the parents trying to come to terms with that.
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I see nothing but victims here. A stupid boy who was killed by his own stupidity and a frightened, traumatized boy who will now have to live with killing. Classmates and family who have to deal with the death and the horror of their experiences. I see no heroes, no victory. I see no villains, only foolishness and cruel stupidity on an epic scale. Only tragedy that the situation was allowed to deteriorate to this extent. There is nothing to celebrate here. There never was.
There is also the tragedy that a family who thought their son was a normal, well-adjusted boy was a bully who regularly targeted another kid. I feel sorry for the parents trying to come to terms with that.
Exactly. These people are not only going to have to deal with the fact that their son died, but that he died essentially by his own actions, and those actions were cruel and horrible. There are no winners here.
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Sandman said what I wanted to say.
This isn't a 'win' for anyone. And this is coming from someone who has been bullied before and thought there was no other way except to fight back. Taking a human life is not a 'win' for the victim in any way whatsoever. He has to live with it. Forever.
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Shane and Sandy beat me to it...
and this is coming from a teacher's kid who was assaulted daily in high school and was suspended when telling the school rent-a-cop (as in, literally, they borrowed him from the local rural police force in town 15 miles away) to either do something, or I'd find a way to protect myself. After I was previously in a 28 on 1 beatdown, including the entire football team.
Is it a tragedy? sure. Am I going to cry for the shitstain? not a chance.
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Oriet said most of what I want to say, but at least one person has said "he wasn't a villain in some story."
Well, you know what? I find this claim interesting enough to give it a more thorough look. He's a trained fighter with a group of flunkies who targets people weaker than him because he can & is either too dumb or berserk to back off when his antagonism backfires on him. As a result, he ends up dead.
That kind of fucking sounds like a Disney villain to me. All that's missing is that he falls off of the roof in a last-ditch attempt to kill the hero. Or really just falls to his death under any circumstances.
On the other hand, a cartoon villain might have redeeming traits. Maybe he has a code of honor, or is a cultured strategist, or a well-intentioned extremist. At the very least, a bitching outfit & a well-earned position of authority. From what little we've heard of his parents, it doesn't even sound like he gets to claim an abusive home life.
So, what's funny is that he actually comes out less sympathetic than a cartoon villain.
Your look isn't thorough enough.
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Your look isn't thorough enough.
Bitch, you'd best be joking. Point is, it's not the people who don't give a shit who are creating a fictional account. Some people are treating him as totally unlikeable because he WAS totally unlikeable. Some people are trying to romanticize him as some kind of deeply flawed tragic hero when he was not. Some fit into neither category.
But if that were the ONLY repeating remark that bothered me, I probably wouldn't have felt like showing it for the badly written parody that it is. This thread has also played host to crap cliches like "teenagers can't do anything malicious because they don't understand consequences" & "fights never end in anything other than scrapes & bruises." Which are both proven bullshit.
Maybe the original story was a tragedy. But this thread is becoming a right-old comedy.
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/mod kilt on
Refer to another poster as "bitch" outside F&B again and win a vacation.
/mod kilt off
Switching to regular poster mode, who referred to the dead kid as a flawed tragic hero? Did I miss something or am I misunderstanding the statement? As for teenagers not being able to do anything malicious....anyone who says that has obviously never met a teenager. And anyone who says fights only end in bruises has never been in one.
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Oriet said most of what I want to say, but at least one person has said "he wasn't a villain in some story."
Well, you know what? I find this claim interesting enough to give it a more thorough look. He's a trained fighter with a group of flunkies who targets people weaker than him because he can & is either too dumb or berserk to back off when his antagonism backfires on him. As a result, he ends up dead.
That kind of fucking sounds like a Disney villain to me. All that's missing is that he falls off of the roof in a last-ditch attempt to kill the hero. Or really just falls to his death under any circumstances.
On the other hand, a cartoon villain might have redeeming traits. Maybe he has a code of honor, or is a cultured strategist, or a well-intentioned extremist. At the very least, a bitching outfit & a well-earned position of authority. From what little we've heard of his parents, it doesn't even sound like he gets to claim an abusive home life.
So, what's funny is that he actually comes out less sympathetic than a cartoon villain.
How would you even know if he has any redeeming features? Maybe he has a little brother who adores him. Maybe he regularly helps old ladies cross the street. Or maybe not, maybe he spends his weekends throwing rocks at babies and tying firecrackers to the tail of his cat. You don't know. All you know is a handful of incidents in his life.
He's not a cartoon villain, because nobody in reality is a cartoon villain. Most people who are assholes in some situations can be great people in others. Or utterly unremarkable. It's really not many people who are universally disgusting, and even if this guy was one of them, you don't know enough about him to say so.
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I was not aware that the stock phrase "Bitch, you'd best be joking" was considered flaming. Is it also flaming if I say someone is bitching, or being a bitch?
I don't know. I know that we have SEEN no redeeming features. And thus it is ridiculous to expect people to treat him sympathetically based on something that MIGHT be true, but runs counter to what they have observed. I've been sticking with the storytelling analogy* because I wanted to show how ridiculous I think the whole complaint is. In a work of fiction, a villain is a character designed to have relatable motives & drive the plot. No one thinks he's a villain. They think he's an asshole.
Also important, that this ONE person is not sympathetic as far as can be reasonably judged, does not mean it is impossible to sympathize with the death of someone who was a bully. Consequently, some people who said things like "I won't cry for the shitstain" might have other ways to characterize him, if they find more out about him. But simply the principle that he "can't be as bad as you're making it seem"? Nah, that's not very convincing.
With that said, I don't think I can be any more concise on this point & think that I, for one, have easily said everything I needed to, & probably then some.
*="Flawed tragic hero" being an example of this.
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heh, Lithp, ya might be a victim of the internet's lack of contextual non-verbal clues. Duly noted.
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For those complaining about the "win", I meant it as for once the victim doesn't get treated like he was the aggressor. for once when things were said and done, society isn't going to blame or punish the victim.
It's a tragedy, sure. Do I feel any sympathy for Nuno? Not at all. Do I feel sympathy for the victim? Hell yes, and he's going to need help because this will haunt him the rest of his life.
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For those complaining about the "win", I meant it as for once the victim doesn't get treated like he was the aggressor. for once when things were said and done, society isn't going to blame or punish the victim.
This, so much this.
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For those complaining about the "win", I meant it as for once the victim doesn't get treated like he was the aggressor. for once when things were said and done, society isn't going to blame or punish the victim.
It's a tragedy, sure. Do I feel any sympathy for Nuno? Not at all. Do I feel sympathy for the victim? Hell yes, and he's going to need help because this will haunt him the rest of his life.
I can understand where you're coming from.
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I'm still confused. Are stock phrases allowed if it's clear they are stock phrases? For instance, if I put "Bitch, please" in quotations, would it be understood that it's not a real insult?
Also, I feel like the thread doesn't need my level of cynicism anymore. It counterbalanced the melodrama of a few pages ago, but now it's just making its own.
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I'm still confused. Are stock phrases allowed if it's clear they are stock phrases? For instance, if I put "Bitch, please" in quotations, would it be understood that it's not a real insult?
Also, I feel like the thread doesn't need my level of cynicism anymore. It counterbalanced the melodrama of a few pages ago, but now it's just making its own.
It sounded like you were just calling her a bitch. It actually never occurred to me that that was meant as a "stock phrase." You explained it. No problem.
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Wait.
Wait.
Wait.
How long has Yla been a woman?
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Wait.
Wait.
Wait.
How long has Yla been a woman?
How the hell would I know? I don't even know if YOU'RE a woman. On THIS board......I make NO assumptions or judgments.
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Oh God...I've been a woman all along!
The vagina, finally it makes sense!
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I never assume the parts determine the gender. That's for the owner of the parts to decide :)
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Oh God...I've been a woman all along!
The vagina, finally it makes sense!
Yeah, it's not just a handy place to store sand.
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Oh God...I've been a woman all along!
The vagina, finally it makes sense!
Yeah, it's not just a handy place to store sand.
And the award for "Phrase Most Likely To Make My Genitalia Curl In On Itself" goes to...
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Wouldn't it be awesome if vaginas could create pearls when they got sand in them? You know, like a clam? Let's set up a program to evolve that trait. Then, a hundreds of years from now, there'll be a legit age-old conspiracy attempting to give human women the ability to create pearls.
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And THAT, my friends, is what we call "TOPIC DRIFT."
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That's what I get when I don't look in a thread for a while....
(for the record, I'm male and going to stay that way)
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ITT: Kit Walker completely ignores 95% of all points made against him to focus on one of three posts that he's capable of tackling.
Kit's a troll. Ignore him.
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Evidence for that assertion? Disagreeing with the general opinion does not a troll make.
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ITT: Kit Walker completely ignores 95% of all points made against him to focus on one of three posts that he's capable of tackling.
Kit's a troll. Ignore him.
And just who are you to make that judgement? I'm a great many negative things - overly emotional, a bad debater, kinda chunky, overly self critical, kinda whiny, thick headed, the list goes on - but a disingenuous shit-stirrer is not one of them.
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ITT: Kit Walker completely ignores 95% of all points made against him to focus on one of three posts that he's capable of tackling.
Kit's a troll. Ignore him.
You have evidence of him intentionally stirring up negative reactions, I assume? That's what a troll does. Poor social skills does not automatically make you a troll.
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Oh God...I've been a woman all along!
The vagina, finally it makes sense!
Yeah, it's not just a handy place to store sand.
And the award for "Phrase Most Likely To Make My Genitalia Curl In On Itself" goes to...
And you're so totally sig-quoted for that. XD
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Sandman, I agree with the rest of your post, except this:
People are just saying that, generally speaking, bullying is not a transgression worthy of death. Try to understand their point of view. Many teens are short-sighted fools who believe themselves immortal and half the time don't think for a second about how what they are doing is unbelievably stupid.
In my experience, teens tend to have more of an attitude of, "The world is going to shit and I'm probably going to die young anyway, so why the hell not."
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Sandman, I agree with the rest of your post, except this:
People are just saying that, generally speaking, bullying is not a transgression worthy of death. Try to understand their point of view. Many teens are short-sighted fools who believe themselves immortal and half the time don't think for a second about how what they are doing is unbelievably stupid.
In my experience, teens tend to have more of an attitude of, "The world is going to shit and I'm probably going to die young anyway, so why the hell not."
Depends on where you are I guess. When I was a teen, and most of the teens I've worked with think more along the lines of "I want to have fun, nothing bad can happen to me this young" and "mom and dad can bail me out of anything I land in".
Teens are wreckless because they haven't been exposed to mortality in most cases and don't understand or think about the concept of mortality. They're still young, there's a whole life ahead, right now it's time to enjoy, survive school, fuck some hot girls and get an awesome car.
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Sandman, I agree with the rest of your post, except this:
People are just saying that, generally speaking, bullying is not a transgression worthy of death. Try to understand their point of view. Many teens are short-sighted fools who believe themselves immortal and half the time don't think for a second about how what they are doing is unbelievably stupid.
In my experience, teens tend to have more of an attitude of, "The world is going to shit and I'm probably going to die young anyway, so why the hell not."
Depends on where you are I guess. When I was a teen, and most of the teens I've worked with think more along the lines of "I want to have fun, nothing bad can happen to me this young" and "mom and dad can bail me out of anything I land in".
Teens are wreckless because they haven't been exposed to mortality in most cases and don't understand or think about the concept of mortality. They're still young, there's a whole life ahead, right now it's time to enjoy, survive school, fuck some hot girls and get an awesome car.
That's "reckless", das.
... I suppose I should be glad it wasn't 'reek' or 'wreck' used for 'wreak'...
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When I was in my teens I was a mix of 'shit... I'm gonna die one day, probably before I should...' and 'Fuck it. I'm invincible! I've survived 50+ surgeries! BRING IT THE FUCK ON!"