Author Topic: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo  (Read 54674 times)

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Offline SCarpelan

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #270 on: September 01, 2014, 02:22:06 pm »
1.  Plenty of other Middle Eastern nations mistreat the Palestinians.  Why aren't you holding them to the same standards?

2.  Funny, I don't remember the Jews ever committing terrorist attacks against Germany, calling for the destruction of the German state, or threatening to wipe out the German people.

3.  Between 1948 and 2001, somewhere from 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews left the various Arab and Islamic countries and moved to Israel, which is more than the number of Arabs who left Israel during that same time period.  Why aren't you accusing them of "ethnic cleansing"?
1. Because they haven't violently chased the Palestinians away from their homes and then attacked / organized attacks to slaughter them in refugee camps. While the Arab nations aren't completely innocent since they have used the Palestinians as pawns in their political games against Israel that doesn't come even close to what Israel has done and is still doing.

2. If the rest of the world had just stood by and let the Nazis treat the Jews as subhumans for decades I guarantee you that the situation would have been different.

3. Are you claiming these Jews escaped an organized campaign of violence?

You are grasping to some really fucking thin straws here.

Offline Eiki-mun

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #271 on: September 01, 2014, 02:26:06 pm »
I've never seen someone so vehemently and unwaveringly defend the utterly indefensible before.
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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #272 on: September 01, 2014, 02:31:17 pm »
Why do I get the distinct impression that if things became openly genocidal you would still decry it as a 'monstrous exaggeration' since Israel could only kill at most 2.5 million to Hitlers 6 million, and besides, the Palestinians have the gall to actually fight so it would be self defense.  ::)

Hitler used racism/nationalism, the victimization of the German people under the treaty of Versailles, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of the Aryan race to subjugate and eventually try to eliminate the Jews.

Israel is using racism/nationalism, the victimization of the Jewish people under Hitler, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of God's chosen people to subjugate the Palestinians.

They're already at the point of denying them basic rights, jamming them into ghettos that lack proper servicing, walling them in, and collectively punishing them... which sounds a lot like Warsaw circa 1941. The only thing Israel hasn't done yet is start a wholesale extermination program.

The comparisons are more than valid. You just need to set aside you preconceived notions about who the good guys and bad guys are and look.
1.  Plenty of other Middle Eastern nations mistreat the Palestinians.  Why aren't you holding them to the same standards?

2.  Funny, I don't remember the Jews ever committing terrorist attacks against Germany, calling for the destruction of the German state, or threatening to wipe out the German people.

3.  Between 1948 and 2001, somewhere from 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews left the various Arab and Islamic countries and moved to Israel, which is more than the number of Arabs who left Israel during that same time period.  Why aren't you accusing them of "ethnic cleansing"?

This is your defense?

Other people are worse so we should excuse Israel its atrocities. That's not acceptable to you for your personal pet causes, nor should it be, so why does it fly now?

What's even worse is that they are not even very good points.

Jordan Syria and Lebanon, have the highest populations of Palestinians outside of Israel (in the region). Jordan renounced their claims to the West Bank and let the PLO take control of the area. Syria and Lebanon are home to displaced populations who would probably go home if they had a home to go to. As refugees, the Palestinians might not be treated well, but guess what, that wouldn't be an issue if they weren't refugees in foreign countries thanks to Israel to begin with.

The Jews in Warsaw were surrounded by a military force and lacked any potential civilian targets unless they wanted to kill their own non-Jewish countrymen living outside the wire who were also suffering under the German yoke so the fact that they never attacked any is largely moot.

Israel has a Right of Return law that automatically grants citizenship to Jews, a democratic political system favorable (biased) towards Jewish people, a very high standard of living, the safety of an unmatched military and powerful allies, a colonization policy to provide land to immigrants, and the Jewish people have a demonstrated history of forming enclaves and homogeneous communities. Only a million showed up in 53 years after how many major wars, civil wars, and uprisings in the region? Wow, what a damning number.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #273 on: September 01, 2014, 02:52:35 pm »
1.  Don't you remember when Palestinians fled from Kuwait during and after the Gulf War?  Or them being driven from Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein?  Or how about al-Assad using the Syrian Civil War as an excuse to mistreat Palestinian refugees?

2.  In that scenario, there wouldn't be any Jews in Europe.

3.  I'm not just claiming that, it's documented fact.

I've never seen someone so vehemently and unwaveringly defend the utterly indefensible before.
I'm not defending this, I'm just trying to bring in some perspective.

Why do I get the distinct impression that if things became openly genocidal you would still decry it as a 'monstrous exaggeration' since Israel could only kill at most 2.5 million to Hitlers 6 million, and besides, the Palestinians have the gall to actually fight so it would be self defense.  ::)

Hitler used racism/nationalism, the victimization of the German people under the treaty of Versailles, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of the Aryan race to subjugate and eventually try to eliminate the Jews.

Israel is using racism/nationalism, the victimization of the Jewish people under Hitler, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of God's chosen people to subjugate the Palestinians.

They're already at the point of denying them basic rights, jamming them into ghettos that lack proper servicing, walling them in, and collectively punishing them... which sounds a lot like Warsaw circa 1941. The only thing Israel hasn't done yet is start a wholesale extermination program.

The comparisons are more than valid. You just need to set aside you preconceived notions about who the good guys and bad guys are and look.
1.  Plenty of other Middle Eastern nations mistreat the Palestinians.  Why aren't you holding them to the same standards?

2.  Funny, I don't remember the Jews ever committing terrorist attacks against Germany, calling for the destruction of the German state, or threatening to wipe out the German people.

3.  Between 1948 and 2001, somewhere from 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews left the various Arab and Islamic countries and moved to Israel, which is more than the number of Arabs who left Israel during that same time period.  Why aren't you accusing them of "ethnic cleansing"?

This is your defense?

Other people are worse so we should excuse Israel its atrocities. That's not acceptable to you for your personal pet causes, nor should it be, so why does it fly now?

What's even worse is that they are not even very good points.

Jordan Syria and Lebanon, have the highest populations of Palestinians outside of Israel (in the region). Jordan renounced their claims to the West Bank and let the PLO take control of the area. Syria and Lebanon are home to displaced populations who would probably go home if they had a home to go to. As refugees, the Palestinians might not be treated well, but guess what, that wouldn't be an issue if they weren't refugees in foreign countries thanks to Israel to begin with.

The Jews in Warsaw were surrounded by a military force and lacked any potential civilian targets unless they wanted to kill their own non-Jewish countrymen living outside the wire who were also suffering under the German yoke so the fact that they never attacked any is largely moot.

Israel has a Right of Return law that automatically grants citizenship to Jews, a democratic political system favorable (biased) towards Jewish people, a very high standard of living, the safety of an unmatched military and powerful allies, a colonization policy to provide land to immigrants, and the Jewish people have a demonstrated history of forming enclaves and homogeneous communities. Only a million showed up in 53 years after how many major wars, civil wars, and uprisings in the region? Wow, what a damning number.
There is so much wrong in that statement, I don't know where to begin.

1.  I'm not trying to excuse Israel, I'm merely attacking a double standard.

2.  Your points suck too.  Did Israel force them to discriminate against Palestinians?

3.  You've got the cause and effect mixed up.  The blockade of Gaza happened as a result of Hamas rocket attacks, not the other way around.  I don't like the blockade either, but there's a huge difference between it and the Warsaw Ghetto.

4.  There's a lot of historical context you seem to be missing.  The Right of Return is an attempt to prevent another Holocaust.  The Jew-friendly government is the obvious result of a Israel being a Jewish country. 

And Israel's military isn't so unmatched.  After all, Hezbollah was able to go toe-to-toe with them.  Besides, the primary reason Israel's military is so powerful is because it was surrounded by neighbors who loathed it.  As for their "friends in high places"?  There are a lot of complicated factors that go into it, such as the Cold War.

And why are you talking about their history of "enclaves and homogenous communities"?  Just about every group has a history of doing that.  And honestly, bringing it up makes you sound like an anti-Semite.  After all, the whole "they won't assimilate" line has been an anti-Semitic canard for millennia.  I'm not saying you are one, it's just something to keep in mind.

Your "only one million" comment ignores the fact that the Jews have never had a very large population.  There are more Arab Christians than there are Jews.  To put it another way, the Jewish population in the Arab Middle East and North Africa has decreased from 900,000 in 1948 to less than 8,000 in 2001.

I will, however, concede your point about colonization.  The Palestinians deserve a homeland of their own and Israel needs to stop its settlements in the West Bank.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2014, 03:21:21 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline Canadian Mojo

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #274 on: September 01, 2014, 05:10:18 pm »
And why are you talking about their history of "enclaves and homogenous communities"?  Just about every group has a history of doing that.  And honestly, bringing it up makes you sound like an anti-Semite.  After all, the whole "they won't assimilate" line has been an anti-Semitic canard for millennia.  I'm not saying you are one, it's just something to keep in mind.

You like to read a whole lot of crap into that for something that is very straight forward. X likes to congregate in groups (just like A thru Z with the exceptions of P, Y, and J, but that is not germane to this discussion). A region is established for X and despite creating very favorable conditions to attract non-resident X, and it being much better than the surrounding area by any metric you choose to use, the amount of X attracted from those areas is not particularly large given the amount of time involved. This suggests that conditions for X in those areas are not particularly bad.

Happy now? I removed the offending word, just like earlier in this thread when I sacrificed accuracy for the sake of your feelings by replacing the word Lebensraum with manifest destiny.

Now, on a personal note, you came damn close to calling me an anti-Semite you little fuck. You skirt around it with the passive-aggressive 'I'm not calling you one but you sound like one' for saying something that as I have just demonstrated is a bullshit complaint on your part. I take serious offense to that. Perhaps a brief introduction to my to my grandparents and great-grandparents and the men I'm named after and try to follow the examples of would shed some light on why. I would strongly recommend you refrain from inferring that again. It won't shut down the discussion, all it will do is shut down any possible pretense of civility between the two of us anywhere on this board.

Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #275 on: September 01, 2014, 06:23:00 pm »
And why are you talking about their history of "enclaves and homogenous communities"?  Just about every group has a history of doing that.  And honestly, bringing it up makes you sound like an anti-Semite.  After all, the whole "they won't assimilate" line has been an anti-Semitic canard for millennia.  I'm not saying you are one, it's just something to keep in mind.

You like to read a whole lot of crap into that for something that is very straight forward. X likes to congregate in groups (just like A thru Z with the exceptions of P, Y, and J, but that is not germane to this discussion). A region is established for X and despite creating very favorable conditions to attract non-resident X, and it being much better than the surrounding area by any metric you choose to use, the amount of X attracted from those areas is not particularly large given the amount of time involved. This suggests that conditions for X in those areas are not particularly bad.

Happy now? I removed the offending word, just like earlier in this thread when I sacrificed accuracy for the sake of your feelings by replacing the word Lebensraum with manifest destiny.

Now, on a personal note, you came damn close to calling me an anti-Semite you little fuck. You skirt around it with the passive-aggressive 'I'm not calling you one but you sound like one' for saying something that as I have just demonstrated is a bullshit complaint on your part. I take serious offense to that. Perhaps a brief introduction to my to my grandparents and great-grandparents and the men I'm named after and try to follow the examples of would shed some light on why. I would strongly recommend you refrain from inferring that again. It won't shut down the discussion, all it will do is shut down any possible pretense of civility between the two of us anywhere on this board.
I get it.  I'm sorry I didn't understand what you were saying.

However, I must inform you that I was called an anti-Semite for even less reason.  I was also accused of being racist for pointing out the obvious: that black people can be racist too.

And why are you bringing up what your ancestors did?  I never said anything about them, I'm talking about you.  In fact, how do I even know they're actually your ancestors?

And there was another territory created specifically as a homeland for refugees: Liberia.  And you know what?  Israel's track record is actually considerably better than its.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 01:25:56 pm by Ultimate Paragon »

Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #276 on: September 01, 2014, 09:34:09 pm »
Why do I get the distinct impression that if things became openly genocidal you would still decry it as a 'monstrous exaggeration' since Israel could only kill at most 2.5 million to Hitlers 6 million, and besides, the Palestinians have the gall to actually fight so it would be self defense.  ::)

Hitler used racism/nationalism, the victimization of the German people under the treaty of Versailles, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of the Aryan race to subjugate and eventually try to eliminate the Jews.

Israel is using racism/nationalism, the victimization of the Jewish people under Hitler, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of God's chosen people to subjugate the Palestinians.

They're already at the point of denying them basic rights, jamming them into ghettos that lack proper servicing, walling them in, and collectively punishing them... which sounds a lot like Warsaw circa 1941. The only thing Israel hasn't done yet is start a wholesale extermination program.

The comparisons are more than valid. You just need to set aside you preconceived notions about who the good guys and bad guys are and look.
1.  Plenty of other Middle Eastern nations mistreat the Palestinians.  Why aren't you holding them to the same standards?

2.  Funny, I don't remember the Jews ever committing terrorist attacks against Germany, calling for the destruction of the German state, or threatening to wipe out the German people.

3.  Between 1948 and 2001, somewhere from 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews left the various Arab and Islamic countries and moved to Israel, which is more than the number of Arabs who left Israel during that same time period.  Why aren't you accusing them of "ethnic cleansing"?

Aside from Israel, no country on Earth has so flagrantly and wilfully violated international law by annexing the land of another people for so long. No Palestinian land has been stolen by any nation except Israel. No other country aside from Israel is fighting the war against Palestinians in defence of Israel's stolen land (which is the single, sole source of the conflict). The refugee crisis has been caused - deliberately - by the IDF. Arab states could, perhaps, have done a better job of adopting those refugees, but this is a second-order offence. Israel created the crisis and could end it tomorrow.
A number of Jews used violence against the Nazis, both the Wehrmact and German civilians. The Warsaw ghetto uprising is the best example. This was, of course, a reaction to earlier violence, as is Palestinian violence and terrorism. Obviously, reactionary violence ends when the provocation does - as it did upon the defeat of the Nazis and as it would upon an end to the occupation of Palestine. Israel has, of course, tried to justify its crimes by blaming the Palestinian resistance to them, obviously, but this is ludicrous. Israel would be far safer if it ended the occupation, as everyone knows.
The Arab population transfer was primarily voluntary. David Ben Gurion encouraged the exodus and was delighted when he was successful, as were other Israeli political leaders. Only to a degree can the exodus be attributed to a policy of ethnic cleansing on the part of the Moroccan and Iraqi governments (or people). This is another silly school yard deflection from the IDF.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

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Offline Lt. Fred

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #277 on: September 02, 2014, 01:04:12 am »
I wonder, also, whether Israel intends to honour the ceasefire agreement it signed? That is to say, was the Israeli government negotiating in good faith? After all, the Israelis have agreed to end their illegal blockade of Gaza in the past - in return for an end to rocket attacks - and violated their word.
Ultimate Paragon admits to fabricating a hit piece on Politico.

http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=6936.0

The party's name is the Democratic Party. It has been since 1830. Please spell correctly.

"The party must go wholly one way or wholly the other. It cannot face in both directions at the same time."
-FDR

Offline Sylvana

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #278 on: September 02, 2014, 02:44:39 am »
I wonder, also, whether Israel intends to honour the ceasefire agreement it signed? That is to say, was the Israeli government negotiating in good faith? After all, the Israelis have agreed to end their illegal blockade of Gaza in the past - in return for an end to rocket attacks - and violated their word.

I doubt it.
Lets face it, they dont give a damn about those rocket attacks, as they barely manage to do even structural damage. The rocket attacks are just an excuse to do whatever the hell they want to the Palestinian people. The blockade is their greatest bargaining chip as well as their source of power over the Palestinian people. They wont just give it up because of pathetic rocket attacks. Not while they can use it to further their expansionism into Palestinian territories.

Normally I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume stupidity or ineptitude instead of malice, but Israel is making that impossible. Back when Palestine was seeking recognition at the UN, Israel declared another round of settlements. Now, after barely reaching a ceasefire they declare another bunch? I swear its as if they want the war to continue, which they probably do seeing as it acts as justification for their slaughter of Palestinians as well as raises their own national pride and identity without any risk to themselves.

Not to mention that this whole "threat of Hamas rockets" acts as an excuse for them to push their borders ever forward into Palestine because of "security". One small note to remember in all of this, after more than a month of fighting. Less than 10 Israeli civilians were killed. A whole month of evil Hamas rocket attacks and devious Hamas tunnel attacks and they didn't even loose a civilian a day, as apposed to Palestine's 60+ people killed a day. Clearly Hamas is a grave threat to Israel.


Offline guizonde

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #279 on: September 02, 2014, 10:00:13 am »
Last night, on the subject of Israel:

Me:"Israel is acting like a bunch of nazis!"

friend:"Don't say that! Israel is NOT socialist!"

... Cue beat, then grim laughter...
@ guizonde: I think I like the way you think.
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Offline Witchyjoshy

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #280 on: September 27, 2014, 03:16:15 pm »
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/25/israel-was-tried-for-war-crimes-today-the-testimony-will-break-your-heart/

Quote
“16 yr old boy stripped naked and used as human shield by Israel for 5 days. He was denied food, water and sleep – and mentally and physically abused, including lashed with a wire across his back. Israeli army stopped a family car near a West Bank protest over Gaza. Positioned their weapons in the windows of back doors, where toddlers were sitting and began to fire on protest. This is not an isolated incident. There is a clear, recorded pattern of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields during attacks on Gaza.”

Quote
“One ambulance worker shot in the head and bled to death while fellow workers were told if they tried to assist him, they would be killed too. Another worker burned to death in his ambulance after a missile attack against it – his colleague was severely injured in the attack, left with life-altering burn injuries. We are talking about Gaza firefighters, police officers, ambulance workers and other emergency services workers being routinely shot at by snipers and missiles by Israeli military. Anyone who knows anything about Palestinian society knows that no Palestinian would use a child or family as a human shield. Israel however routinely used Palestinians as human shields throughout this operation and those prior.”

There's a lot more testimonies on the page proper.

Let's see you try to justify this, Nemo, Ultimate Paragon.
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Offline Ultimate Paragon

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #281 on: September 27, 2014, 03:36:04 pm »
I'm not even going to try to justify that.  It's horrible.

Offline Second Coming of Madman

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #282 on: September 27, 2014, 03:44:09 pm »
My god. I knew it was bad...but...

« Last Edit: September 27, 2014, 03:51:36 pm by Second Coming of Madman »
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Offline Dakota Bob

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #283 on: September 28, 2014, 04:44:36 am »
Didn't think it could get any worse, but turns out I'm wrong again.

Offline Kain

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Re: 2014 Israel/Gaza conflict: electric boogaloo
« Reply #284 on: September 28, 2014, 10:18:27 am »
Congratulations, I am completely speechless.
In paranoia I find genius / But the ice-dreams have come
with spiritless consequence / A hatchet has been hidden
between my eyes / A hatchet gift-wrapped in paranoia / A
wooden heart never bleeds / A wooden heart never bleeds,
yet inextricable thoughts still weave / Introspection
fabricated for battle / No time has been wasted
/ Neuroleptic seconds marry electroconvulsive hours / In
the cranial freezer, paranoia is the bastard and I
find genius Petrify / Paralyze