FSTDT Forums
Community => Politics and Government => Topic started by: Ironchew on July 17, 2014, 02:29:52 pm
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Hopefully this thread will attract some of the recent discussion Best Political Cartoons (http://fqa.digibase.ca/index.php?topic=10.msg240313#msg240313) in someplace more on-topic.
Two sides throw down in a highly asymmetrical conflict. In the red corner, an apartheid colonizer with tens of billions of dollars in aid flowing in from the U.S. government and no intention of stopping their blatant violation of international law regarding settlement expansion and border blockades. In the blue corner, an unstable open-air prison with less-refined rocketry. Cease-fires were alleged, though the practical root contentions likely were not addressed at all. The death toll in the red corner: 1, several wounded. In the blue corner: 230, over 1,100 wounded.
But remember: the red corner is acting in self defense and the blue corner knows nothing but violence.
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Ah yes, because the underdog always has moral superiority. And murdering civilians in cold blood is also against international law.
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And murdering civilians in cold blood is also against international law.
There's an end-run around that. Haven't you heard that these airstrikes kill only insurgents, often retroactively, but still very much insurgents?
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And murdering civilians in cold blood is also against international law.
There's an end-run around that. Haven't you heard that these airstrikes kill only insurgents, often retroactively, but still very much insurgents?
Israel does acknowledge civilian deaths.
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There are still the multiple grave crimes the government of Israel has committed against it's people and others.
In general, the IDF is the greatest military power and possibly the most unrestrained one in the ME. Yet, it cannot end the threat of Hamas and indeed has begun to use the same tactics. These include targeted killings, human shields, kidnapping/ holding civilians incommunicado , censorship of the media and the infamous "Tip of the spear" unit.
On a moral scale, Hamas and the Israeli government are on the same level. Neither is right for Israelis, neither is right for Palestinians.
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There are still the multiple grave crimes the government of Israel has committed against it's people and others.
In general, the IDF is the greatest military power and possibly the most unrestrained one in the ME. Yet, it cannot end the threat of Hamas and indeed has begun to use the same tactics. These include targeted killings, human shields, kidnapping/ holding civilians incommunicado , censorship of the media and the infamous "Tip of the spear" unit.
On a moral scale, Hamas and the Israeli government are on the same level. Neither is right for Israelis, neither is right for Palestinians.
I think you're half right. Quite a bit of the stuff Israel does is worthy of criticism, if not condemnation. However, I still think they still have a moral edge over Hamas, small as it may be.
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Is that moral edge they didn't start it?
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Is that moral edge they didn't start it?
There are more factors than that.
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Israel has started a ground invasion of Gaza. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28359582#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa)
Because when an oppressed population gets uppity, sometimes you have to put that moral-high-ground jackboot on their neck.
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Israel has started a ground invasion of Gaza. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28359582#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa)
Because when an oppressed population gets uppity, sometimes you have to put that moral-high-ground jackboot on their neck.
You know, this really isn't all that different from the anti-terrorism operations going on in Pakistan right now. Still, I'm hoping for a minimum of collateral damage and innocent casualties.
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I won't deny that Israel has blood on its hands, but I still think that they're better than Hamas. Hamas never even TRIES to limit itself to military targets. Israel does try. That, in my mind, is the difference.
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I won't deny that Israel has blood on its hands, but I still think that they're better than Hamas. Hamas never even TRIES to limit itself to military targets. Israel does try. That, in my mind, is the difference.
A difference. There are others as well.
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Israel has started a ground invasion of Gaza. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28359582#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa)
Because when an oppressed population gets uppity, sometimes you have to put that moral-high-ground jackboot on their neck.
You know, this really isn't all that different from the anti-terrorism operations going on in Pakistan right now. Still, I'm hoping for a minimum of collateral damage and innocent casualties.
As Iraq has shown us, it's virtually impossible to avoid civilian targets in a ground invasion. This is insane.
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Israel has started a ground invasion of Gaza. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28359582#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa)
Because when an oppressed population gets uppity, sometimes you have to put that moral-high-ground jackboot on their neck.
You know, this really isn't all that different from the anti-terrorism operations going on in Pakistan right now. Still, I'm hoping for a minimum of collateral damage and innocent casualties.
As Iraq has shown us, it's virtually impossible to avoid civilian targets in a ground invasion. This is insane.
My operative word was "minimum". I'm not so dumb as to think there'd be no innocent lives lost.
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My operative word was "minimum". I'm not so dumb as to think there'd be no innocent lives lost.
Let's put it this way: airstrikes do not minimize civilian deaths at all, but a ground invasion ensures maximum carnage.
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My operative word was "minimum". I'm not so dumb as to think there'd be no innocent lives lost.
Let's put it this way: airstrikes do not minimize civilian deaths at all, but a ground invasion ensures maximum carnage.
And yet I don't hear you bitching about Ukraine making ground offensives against the pro-Russian rebels.
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My operative word was "minimum". I'm not so dumb as to think there'd be no innocent lives lost.
Let's put it this way: airstrikes do not minimize civilian deaths at all, but a ground invasion ensures maximum carnage.
And yet I don't hear you bitching about Ukraine making ground offensives against the pro-Russian rebels.
Well, yeah, because this is the Israel/Gaza thread. It doesn't mean I don't care about anything else that's happening in the world, but the fact that the Palestinian Occupied Territories is an open-air prison where its people have no control over its borders and refugees are not allowed to cross the border into neighboring nations does make it fairly unique among current conflicts.
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Here's a nice simplistic, morality-free analysis: if I continually go out of my way to agitate the guy down the street, and every time I do it he beats the snot out of me, I think that at some point I would consider not agitating him.
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Here's a nice simplistic, morality-free analysis: if I continually go out of my way to agitate the guy down the street, and every time I do it he beats the snot out of me, I think that at some point I would consider not agitating him.
Maybe if the guy that beats the snot out of him was also keeping him locked up in his basement...
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Israel bears responsibility for the predictable use of violence on both sides. It is within Israel's power to end the conflict, and not Palestine's. Israel knows perfectly well that some Palestinians will entirely reasonable try to resist their slow annexation of Palestinian territory. They know perfectly well that some will use violent means to resist. And they know perfectly well how to immediately end any of that violent resistance - stop the occupation. Israel is willing to bear the moral responsibility for their own actions in prosecuting the annexation, the response from Palestinians and their own disproportionate counter-response. They are also willing to bear the cost in human lives. It's quite cheap, from the Israeli perspective. In the long run, it may well not be.
I note that I use the "Israel" to refer to the current government of Israel. Many Israelis are responsible, peace-loving people, unlike their government.
Now, to go to the thing that was left in the last thread.
Are we so sure Israel has changed its spots since 1948? This is a state founded on ethnic cleansing - like in Yugoslavia. Is that not what they are doing now? They try to make Palestine so miserable for Palestinians that eventually they will surrender their homes to Israel without a fight. And much of Palestine has already been given up. How much of Palestine has Israel already (illegally) annexed through settlement construction?
1. "Founded on ethnic cleansing"? That's wrong in so many ways I can't even begin to describe it. And many Israelis oppose the settlements.
This isn't even in doubt any more. I strongly suggest you read literally anything about the 1948 or 1967 wars from the last twenty years, in which the IDF ethnically cleansed large numbers of Palestinians from their homes. Benny Morris is a good source, for instance.
Why did Israel withdraw from Gaza? Because it was too expensive to maintain a few hundred settlers - and they'd given up on direct annexation, as in the West Bank. Instead, blockade was the answer. Lay siege, starve them out.
2. No. It was done primarily to try and speed along a peace process. And if they wanted to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza, why wasn't it a continuous blockade since 2005? If they're trying to take over Gaza, they're doing a crappy job of it.
That's obviously just nonsense. Israel has not been willing to negotiate in good faith since the breakdown of Taba in 2001.
When did the Israelis loosen the blockade, even for a day? In total violation of various peace agreements and ceasefires that they've signed, they've just maintained the blockade of food and water and so on, no? I'm not saying that Israel wants to take Gaza. They're happy for Gaza to remain Palestinian. Too expensive to try to annex it.
Is Hamas genocidal? Of course not. This is exactly the hysterical overreaction you decry in others, and rightly so. Firstly, Hamas has no capacity to commit even the sort of mass casualties Israel routinely inflicts on them. Or even to sufficiently bloody Israel's nose to force them to the negotiating table, which they resolutely refuse to do. Why was there a negotiated peace with Egypt, but not Palestine? Because Egypt was an actual threat to people, and Palestine is not; you can kick them around all day long, and they can't even touch you, except just enough to justify kicking them some more.
Nor does Hamas even have the intention of killing Jews. Would Hamas accept a peace overture from Israel, based on the Green Line? Of course. In a heartbeat. It is to achieve this end that Hamas occasionally uses force, and usually uses non-violent tactics. Indeed, Hamas has been hyper-actively cracking down on bottle-rocket usage over the last year, in order to prevent the deaths of Jews. In order to justify a counter-attack, Israel stopped their efforts.
3. Citation needed.
For what?
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Okay, Fred. There's a term for you: "useful idiot". I'm against Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory. The problem is that it's not a justification for attacks on innocent people whose only crime is being Israeli. I have sympathy for the Palestinian people. I do not have sympathy for terrorists. Because that's what Hamas is: a terrorist organization. Its activities present one of the biggest roadblocks to peace. If they restricted themselves to military targets and property, if they tried to peacefully cooperate with Israel, if they showed an ounce of remorse about the deaths they've caused, I might sympathize with them. But they don't, so I don't.
And as for your "refutations".
1. In both cases, that was done in retaliation for unprovoked attacks by the Arabs. If they hate Israel so much that they feel oppressed by its existence, that's their problem, not Israel's. Besides, "ethnic cleansing" is a strong term to use.
2. Israel has loosened the blockade. Since 2010, they've allowed civilian goods to enter Gaza. Meanwhile, Egypt has allowed people to enter and leave Gaza.
Oh, and the blockade didn't begin until two years after the withdrawal from Gaza. Why? Because the elected government was overthrown by Hamas.
3. For everything you said. The only thing stopping Hamas from wiping Israel off the face of the Earth is their lack of means. Hamas's charter blames Zionism for countless tragedies. It's anti-Israel, and moreover, it's anti-Semitic. And if Hamas has "seen the light", as they like to claim, why haven't they changed it? All this talk of moderation and cooperation is nothing more than a PR stunt.
TL;DR Hamas needs to either change its ways or go.
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1. Ethnic cleansing is a strong word to use because its the right word to use for systematically throwing people out of the area and letting Israelis move in.
2. Hamas is a natural reaction - people were thrown out of their homes by these people who have drones, high powered aircraft and tanks, and who they cannot wage honest warfare with.
3. One could say the same thing about Israel's willingness to "cooperate" - it is a publicity stunt to make the international community stop criticizing them, just like how the United States apparently cannot criticize Israel without the Right Wing throwing a bitch fit.
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1. Ethnic cleansing is a strong word to use because its the right word to use for systematically throwing people out of the area and letting Israelis move in.
2. Hamas is a natural reaction - people were thrown out of their homes by these people who have drones, high powered aircraft and tanks, and who they cannot wage honest warfare with.
3. One could say the same thing about Israel's willingness to "cooperate" - it is a publicity stunt to make the international community stop criticizing them, just like how the United States apparently cannot criticize Israel without the Right Wing throwing a bitch fit.
1. "Ethnic cleansing" implies wholescale genocide. Which hasn't happened.
2. It may be a natural reaction, but that doesn't justify what they do. Or need I remind you of the differences between Hamas and the ANC?
3. Wrong. Israel has made genuine efforts. It has done so in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.
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I'm against Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory.
Good. This is the sole cause of the conflict. When Israel is willing to dismantle them, on that day it will end.
If they restricted themselves to military targets and property,
This is not actually an option available to them. Unlike the IDF, Palestinians do not have access to world arms markets. They make do with crappy second-rate bottlerockets.
1. In both cases, that was done in retaliation for unprovoked attacks by the Arabs. If they hate Israel so much that they feel oppressed by its existence, that's their problem, not Israel's. Besides, "ethnic cleansing" is a strong term to use.
Again, I strongly advise you to read literally anything on the 1948 or 1967 wars. Neither were started or substantially involved Palestinians, who were the primary victims. Indeed, even if they had been belligerents you can't acquire land through force. Nor can you justify mass rape, mass murder, threats, ect by arguing that they started the conflict. Ethnic cleansing is a strong word accurately describing Al Nakba. It was used in much less severe circumstances in Yugoslavia.
Indeed, in 1948, the Arabs didn't even start it (Egypt and Syria started the 1967 war). The Israelis had begun their ethnic cleansing campaign well before the start of the war. Deir Yassin, for instance, was April 9. The war began on May 15.
2. Israel has loosened the blockade. Since 2010, they've allowed civilian goods to enter Gaza. Meanwhile, Egypt has allowed people to enter and leave Gaza.
Well, that's nice of them. Not enough, of course, for the Palestinians to get enough to eat. But it's nice of them to at least make moves towards ending their permanent violations of the agreements they've made with Hamas.
Oh, and the blockade didn't begin until two years after the withdrawal from Gaza. Why? Because the elected government was overthrown by Hamas.
Just as the US government was overthrown by the Democratic Party.
3. For everything you said. The only thing stopping Hamas from wiping Israel off the face of the Earth is their lack of means. Hamas's charter blames Zionism for countless tragedies. It's anti-Israel, and moreover, it's anti-Semitic. And if Hamas has "seen the light", as they like to claim, why haven't they changed it? All this talk of moderation and cooperation is nothing more than a PR stunt.
Hamas's charter is as relevant as Likud's, which is equally racist. No doubt Hamas is a deeply flawed institution. I'm not going to deny that. It is somewhat extractive, for instance, more of an organised criminal organisation than a government. Is it the cause of the conflict? No. Israel's attempts to annex Palestine are. If those attempts ended, the conflict would.
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I would argue that Israelis that move into settlements on occupied land are not 'innocent people' as you put it. They are willful accomplices to state sanctioned and supported theft, idiots, or have been dragged there by family and had no say in the matter.
These are little more than the American Indian wars 21st century style. Actually this is just plain old imperial colonialism as practiced by far too many nations up until far too recently. So the question is; if colonialism is wrong, why is this right?
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And yet more oversimplifications and flat-out misinformation. ::) Then again, you're the same guy who thought Venezuela was doing fine.
Good. This is the sole cause of the conflict. When Israel is willing to dismantle them, on that day it will end.
"Sole cause of the conflict"? Yeah, I'm sure the post-colonial clusterfuck, the Cold War, Iranian agitation, and the rise of Radical Islamism had nothing to do with it. And why were the Palestinians attacking Israel before the settlements were built?
This is not actually an option available to them. Unlike the IDF, Palestinians do not have access to world arms markets. They make do with crappy second-rate bottlerockets.
And those rockets do a lot of damage. Besides, the ANC wasn't exactly well-armed either.
Again, I strongly advise you to read literally anything on the 1948 or 1967 wars. Neither were started or substantially involved Palestinians, who were the primary victims. Indeed, even if they had been belligerents you can't acquire land through force. Nor can you justify mass rape, mass murder, threats, ect by arguing that they started the conflict. Ethnic cleansing is a strong word accurately describing Al Nakba. It was used in much less severe circumstances in Yugoslavia.
Indeed, in 1948, the Arabs didn't even start it (Egypt and Syria started the 1967 war). The Israelis had begun their ethnic cleansing campaign well before the start of the war. Deir Yassin, for instance, was April 9. The war began on May 15.
(http://millheiser.com/hokeyblog/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/blgluthorwrong.jpg)
You seem to be ignoring the Civil War in Mandatory Palestine. The Palestinians may or may not have been the aggressors in that conflict, but they definitely drew first blood. Oh, and the Arabs did start the 1948 conflict. And what about the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim nations to Israel? Are we just supposed to ignore those refugees?
Well, that's nice of them. Not enough, of course, for the Palestinians to get enough to eat. But it's nice of them to at least make moves towards ending their permanent violations of the agreements they've made with Hamas.
Hamas violated those agreements first. I don't remember them cracking down on the rockets being fired into Israel. Maybe if they'd done so...
Just as the US government was overthrown by the Democratic Party.
Uh, no. Hamas seized control through military action.
Hamas's charter is as relevant as Likud's, which is equally racist. No doubt Hamas is a deeply flawed institution. I'm not going to deny that. It is somewhat extractive, for instance, more of an organised criminal organisation than a government. Is it the cause of the conflict? No. Israel's attempts to annex Palestine are. If those attempts ended, the conflict would.
And we end with yet more dumbassery.
I would argue that Israelis that move into settlements on occupied land are not 'innocent people' as you put it. They are willful accomplices to state sanctioned and supported theft, idiots, or have been dragged there by family and had no say in the matter.
But do they deserve to die? And it's not just settlers who get killed
These are little more than the American Indian wars 21st century style. Actually this is just plain old imperial colonialism as practiced by far too many nations up until far too recently. So the question is; if colonialism is wrong, why is this right?
I don't like the settlements either. But to paint it as a clear-cut scenario of Israel bullying Palestine is just plain intellectually dishonest. I know it's tempting and natural to try and find good guys and bad guys. Unfortunately, things are rarely so simple.
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Good. This is the sole cause of the conflict. When Israel is willing to dismantle them, on that day it will end.
"Sole cause of the conflict"? Yeah, I'm sure the post-colonial clusterfuck, the Cold War, Iranian agitation, and the rise of Radical Islamism had nothing to do with it. And why were the Palestinians attacking Israel before the settlements were built?
The settlements were constructed beginning around 1967, which eventually led to widespread popular violence (ie, the First Intifada from 1987). A number of Palestinians were quite mad about being forced out of their homes in 1948, even before the Six Day War. It has since become apparent that they are not going to get the initial Mandate borders off the Israeli state - which is all that was ever asked. The PLO formally accepted a two-state solution quite recently, in 1988.
Why did Egypt and Syria fight Israel in 1967 (and a few other times as well)? Well, that's a different question.
There is a way to test your contention that the conflict is caused by more than Israeli aggression - force Israel to the negotiating table as we did South Africa. When they are willing to negotiate in good faith, the Palestinians will certainly accept. At that stage, either the conflict will largely end (barring a few radicals on both sides) or you will not be entirely wrong.
This is not actually an option available to them. Unlike the IDF, Palestinians do not have access to world arms markets. They make do with crappy second-rate bottlerockets.
And those rockets do a lot of damage. [/quote]
They have killed a grand total of one Israeli so far this conflict.
Besides, the ANC wasn't exactly well-armed either.
And they used terrorism all the time. We remember them as this great non-violent social movement because it's convenient to, but they killed loads of people, including a bunch of Africans.
Again, I strongly advise you to read literally anything on the 1948 or 1967 wars. Neither were started or substantially involved Palestinians, who were the primary victims. Indeed, even if they had been belligerents you can't acquire land through force. Nor can you justify mass rape, mass murder, threats, ect by arguing that they started the conflict. Ethnic cleansing is a strong word accurately describing Al Nakba. It was used in much less severe circumstances in Yugoslavia.
Indeed, in 1948, the Arabs didn't even start it (Egypt and Syria started the 1967 war). The Israelis had begun their ethnic cleansing campaign well before the start of the war. Deir Yassin, for instance, was April 9. The war began on May 15.
You seem to be ignoring the Civil War in Mandatory Palestine. The Palestinians may or may not have been the aggressors in that conflict, but they definitely drew first blood. Oh, and the Arabs did start the 1948 conflict.
You don't think the Arab invasion was a response to the civil war in Mandate Palestine?
And what about the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim nations to Israel? Are we just supposed to ignore those refugees?
So, we're going to blame Palestinians not only for the actions of Germans, but also Iraqis (and indeed, David Ben Gurion, who encouraged that exodus). We should be clear - the flight of Jews from Tripoli and Iraq was largely sincere Zionism, was partly encouraged emigration and was not at all ethnic cleansing in any sense. Nobody seriously thinks that was ethnic cleansing.
Well, that's nice of them. Not enough, of course, for the Palestinians to get enough to eat. But it's nice of them to at least make moves towards ending their permanent violations of the agreements they've made with Hamas.
Hamas violated those agreements first. I don't remember them cracking down on the rockets being fired into Israel.
Hyper-actively. The only reason bottle-rocket attacks have begun again is because Israel wants them to, in order to justify counter-attack. They have greatly increased bottle-rocket attacks from their record lows by suppressing the Hamas police units that in turn suppress them (by and large bottle-rockets are launched by non-Hamas extremist groups).
Just as the US government was overthrown by the Democratic Party.
Uh, no. Hamas seized control through military action.
Indeed. Military action at the ballot box.
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And they used terrorism all the time. We remember them as this great non-violent social movement because it's convenient to, but they killed loads of people, including a bunch of Africans.
Difference is, they didn't deliberately target civilians, nor did they gloat over their deaths.
You don't think the Arab invasion was a response to the civil war in Mandate Palestine?
No, I don't. If it was, why did it only begin after the state of Israel was created?
So, we're going to blame Palestinians not only for the actions of Germans, but also Iraqis (and indeed, David Ben Gurion, who encouraged that exodus). We should be clear - the flight of Jews from Tripoli and Iraq was largely sincere Zionism, was partly encouraged emigration and was not at all ethnic cleansing in any sense. Nobody seriously thinks that was ethnic cleansing.
Zionism was certainly a factor, yes. But we can't discount anti-Semitism and other push factors.
Hyper-actively. The only reason bottle-rocket attacks have begun again is because Israel wants them to, in order to justify counter-attack. They have greatly increased bottle-rocket attacks from their record lows by suppressing the Hamas police units that in turn suppress them (by and large bottle-rockets are launched by non-Hamas extremist groups).
I think that tinfoil hat of yours is cutting off the circulation to your brain.
Indeed. Military action at the ballot box.
Initially, yes. Then it devolved into bloodshed.
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I think that tinfoil hat of yours is cutting off the circulation to your brain.
This is not a rebuttal. This is an empty statement. Please try again.
Incidentally, since I am not an unbiased party in this discussion...
How would you feel if North Korea invaded the USA and bulldozed your house, to build a new house for North Koreans to live in?
How would you feel if there was a group of people fighting so that you could get your house back? What if they were the only group of people willing to fight for your cause?
Would you call them terrorists? Would you fight them tooth and nail, while insisting that you should lay down and die in front of a North Korean bulldozer, because "non-violent resistance" is the only answer?
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I think that tinfoil hat of yours is cutting off the circulation to your brain.
This is not a rebuttal. This is an empty statement. Please try again.
Incidentally, since I am not an unbiased party in this discussion...
How would you feel if North Korea invaded the USA and bulldozed your house, to build a new house for North Koreans to live in?
How would you feel if there was a group of people fighting so that you could get your house back? What if they were the only group of people willing to fight for your cause?
Would you call them terrorists? Would you fight them tooth and nail, while insisting that you should lay down and die in front of a North Korean bulldozer, because "non-violent resistance" is the only answer?
1. Israel is not North Korea.
2. I'm against the settlements, I just don't want innocent civilians to be murdered.
3. When did I ask them to renounce violence entirely? All I said was that they should avoid targeting civilians. If that's too much to ask, then that's Hamas's problem, not Israel's.
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I think that tinfoil hat of yours is cutting off the circulation to your brain.
This is not a rebuttal. This is an empty statement. Please try again.
Incidentally, since I am not an unbiased party in this discussion...
How would you feel if North Korea invaded the USA and bulldozed your house, to build a new house for North Koreans to live in?
How would you feel if there was a group of people fighting so that you could get your house back? What if they were the only group of people willing to fight for your cause?
Would you call them terrorists? Would you fight them tooth and nail, while insisting that you should lay down and die in front of a North Korean bulldozer, because "non-violent resistance" is the only answer?
1. Israel is not North Korea.
Deflection.
2. I'm against the settlements, I just don't want innocent civilians to be murdered.
Then why aren't you showing more animosity towards Israel than you are showing Palestine?
3. When did I ask them to renounce violence entirely?
Your constant comparisons to other oppressed countries that have "solved things through non-violence", for starters.
One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist. Conversely, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
When you're backed into a corner with no way out, you're going to use whatever you can get.
Palestine is doing what it is doing because Israel is squeezing them into ghettos, destroying their homes, their families. Israel is responsible for Palestine's actions, in this instance.
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And they used terrorism all the time. We remember them as this great non-violent social movement because it's convenient to, but they killed loads of people, including a bunch of Africans.
Difference is, they didn't deliberately target civilians, nor did they gloat over their deaths.
No, just no. The ANC primarily targeted civilians. Bombing shopping malls and such like they did, is pretty much guaranteed to only harm civilians. I would say they didn't care who they killed so long as they were white, but that's not entirely accurate because they killed even more black people than whites. Furthermore, while not having access to tanks and such (which would have been entirely useless in the civil war.) the ANC was quite well armed by their friendly ties with most old soviet block and communist nations.
The Palestinians cannot avoid civilians. hell, they can barely even harm Israeli civilians as it is. The people doing the settlements are not the Israeli military but building contractors and police, all of whom are civilians essentially. Last I checked even, those bottle rockets which are pretty much all the Palestinians have available to them, have such a short range they cannot even reach the original 1948 borders of Israel from the current Palestinian lands.
Hell, think about what caused this recent slaughter. 3 Jewish kids were abducted and killed. In any other country, this would be seen as the work of a serial killer or at worst an isolated incident of hate crime. Given the victims were all children, serial killer is more likely. However, the Israeli governments response to discovering the bodies is to proclaim "Hamas is responsible and Hamas will pay" without any evidence whatsoever. Of course with such a proclamation and essentially support from the government, is it obvious that a group of Israelis will then go and execute a random Palestinian child in a revenge attack. After which everything spiraled out of control into the usual and current Israeli slaughter and bombing of Palestinian territories.
Lastly, air strikes, Israels current favorite method of slaughter, by their very nature are indiscriminate. Bombs dropped by aircraft are useless at fighting terrorists, but they work wonders at beating an uppity ghetto back into submission for the next wave of expansion.
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I agree with everything that Sylvana posted, but this:
...Lastly, air strikes, Israels current favorite method of slaughter, by their very nature are indiscriminate. Bombs dropped by aircraft are useless at fighting terrorists...
in particular is something that USA and their UAV military should finally learn as well.
And really, when the Palestinians get "weapons" they often have such random stuff as slingshots. Israel is quick to point out that those are dangerous and can be lethal as well, but the truth is that apart from the cheap rockets that the terrorists have Palestinians are really lightly armed. Meanwhile Israeli military is not hunting the terrorists or trying to seize the rocket launchers or anything. They are bombing buildings. Either because those buildings are rumoured to contain terrorists or their families or simply because they happen to be on the way. That is not how you do counter-terrorism, back in WW2 people would have just called it an act of war like bombing London or Dresden but these days even during wars people no longer accept targeting civilians. So either this is a war crime or simply an act of terrorism against Palestinians but attacks like this will not stop the warfare there and it will not help reducing the Palestinian terrorists (unless of course every single Palestinian is killed) instead it will make things escalate even more.
Which may be the point as it gives Israel the justification to continue their agression.
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The IDF is targeting and bombing hospitals, including Palestine's only Rehab hospital. Full of paralyzed patients. Some of whom needed oxygen tanks to live.
Oh, but the IDF was so gracious as to let them know to evacuate very shortly before the bombing began.
Oh, but it's Palestine's fault somehow. Of course. It's never the fact that despite Israel presenting an amiable front, that they're systematically slaughtering and driving an indigenous people into a ghetto to slowly eliminate them.
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The IDF is targeting and bombing hospitals, including Palestine's only Rehab hospital. Full of paralyzed patients. Some of whom needed oxygen tanks to live.
Oh, but the IDF was so gracious as to let them know to evacuate very shortly before the bombing began.
Oh, but it's Palestine's fault somehow. Of course. It's never the fact that despite Israel presenting an amiable front, that they're systematically slaughtering and driving an indigenous people into a ghetto to slowly eliminate them.
I agree, Israel really needs to rethink its strategy towards Palestine, and consider a two-state solution. And the way Israel is prosecuting the war is questionable at best. However, while I have sympathy for the Palestinian people, I have absolutely none for Hamas.
And if Israel wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians, they're doing a pretty poor job of it. Since 1967, the population of the Palestinian territories has more than quadrupled. You can call their treatment oppressive (because it is), but calling it genocide makes it very difficult to take you seriously.
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The Nation just did a piece on the massacre in Shejaiya (http://www.thenation.com/article/180728/massacre-shejaiya):
Gaza City—Two small bodies lie on the metal table inside the morgue at Gaza's Shifa hospital. Omama is nine years old. Her right forearm is mangled and charred and the top half of her skull has been smashed in. Beside her lies her seven year-old brother. His name is not certain. It might be Hamza or it might be Khalil. Relatives are having trouble identifying him because his head has been shorn off. Their parents will not mourn them—because they are dead too.
All of them were killed in Shejaiya, one of Gaza's poorest and most crowded neighborhoods, which came under a brutal and sustained assault by the Israeli military today.
...
It marked the bloodiest day in a blood-soaked conflict. Nearly 90 people were killed, 60 of them in Shejaiya alone, bringing the death toll in Gaza since the assault began to 425, 112 of them children, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. Over three thousand people have been injured.
What'd I say earlier in this thread? Maximum carnage. Israel's actions are indefensible and anyone that tries to defend their occupation of Palestine at this point is full of shit.
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I agree. If Israel wanted to go after Hamas, they should have used a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.
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The current death tolls I'm seeing quoted are 100 Palestinians and 13 Israeli soldiers. Hamas is claiming to have captured some Israeli soldiers alive.
Magus, can you post your sources for the bombing of hospitals? If it's true, then I can't think of a single way to justify it on Israels part. I honestly don't know what to say to express my feelings on the matter. If true, those who are responsible for planning and authorizing should be prosecuted for war crimes.
The Nation just did a piece on the massacre in Shejaiya (http://www.thenation.com/article/180728/massacre-shejaiya):
Gaza City—Two small bodies lie on the metal table inside the morgue at Gaza's Shifa hospital. Omama is nine years old. Her right forearm is mangled and charred and the top half of her skull has been smashed in. Beside her lies her seven year-old brother. His name is not certain. It might be Hamza or it might be Khalil. Relatives are having trouble identifying him because his head has been shorn off. Their parents will not mourn them—because they are dead too.
All of them were killed in Shejaiya, one of Gaza's poorest and most crowded neighborhoods, which came under a brutal and sustained assault by the Israeli military today.
...
It marked the bloodiest day in a blood-soaked conflict. Nearly 90 people were killed, 60 of them in Shejaiya alone, bringing the death toll in Gaza since the assault began to 425, 112 of them children, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry. Over three thousand people have been injured.
What'd I say earlier in this thread? Maximum carnage. Israel's actions are indefensible and anyone that tries to defend their occupation of Palestine at this point is full of shit.
There is not a single god damn excuse for this. Attacking a crowded neighborhood full of civilians isn't acceptable no matter who might be hiding there. I would love to hear what the justification for this is.
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Sure, here's a few different sources on it:
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/18/israel_bombs_gazas_only_rehab_hospital
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/hospital-evacuate-patients.html
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/18/371841/israel-bombs-more-hospitals-in-gaza/
(Be careful with a lot of the comments in that last one, anti-semitic slurs up the wazoo.)
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I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?
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I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?
qft.
i'm sure the rest of the world is asking a similar question.
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There's a story circulating that 3 little boys were playing on the beach and were killed...deliberately. The gunners on artillery used to murder them bracketed them to get a better shot.
Ironbite-tell me again how this is justified?
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I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?
I hope it leads to the U.S. pulling foreign aid to Israel and levying sanctions against them. If only...
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I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?
I find it amusing (and more than a bit horrifying) that you think Palestine holds equal blame in this matter. Especially after everything you just read.
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I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?
I find it amusing (and more than a bit horrifying) that you think Palestine holds equal blame in this matter. Especially after everything you just read.
What about all the rockets they've been firing into Israel? I agree, that doesn't justify the slaughter of innocent people, but do you really expect them to just ignore it?
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I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?
I find it amusing (and more than a bit horrifying) that you think Palestine holds equal blame in this matter. Especially after everything you just read.
What about all the rockets they've been firing into Israel? I agree, that doesn't justify the slaughter of innocent people, but do you really expect them to just ignore it?
Do you really expect me to take you seriously when you think home made bottle rockets are equivalent to bombs, bulldozers, and real, professionally made rockets?
Do you really expect me to give them equivalent blame when the bloodshed at the hands of the IDF is ten, twenty times more than the bloodshed at the hands of the Palestinian people?
I will place blame where it is due, and 80% of the blame goes to Israel right now.
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I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?
I find it amusing (and more than a bit horrifying) that you think Palestine holds equal blame in this matter. Especially after everything you just read.
What about all the rockets they've been firing into Israel? I agree, that doesn't justify the slaughter of innocent people, but do you really expect them to just ignore it?
Do you really expect me to take you seriously when you think home made bottle rockets are equivalent to bombs, bulldozers, and real, professionally made rockets?
Do you really expect me to give them equivalent blame when the bloodshed at the hands of the IDF is ten, twenty times more than the bloodshed at the hands of the Palestinian people?
I will place blame where it is due, and 80% of the blame goes to Israel right now.
Ah yes, because inferior equipment means you have a moral high ground.
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If you keep people in a cage and continue to fragment and shrink the boundaries of that cage, they will fight back with whatever weapons they have.
It is highly disingenuous to paint this conflict as anything other than a continuation of Israeli occupation and brutalization. The improvised rockets fired into Israel are an all-too-convenient pretext for this continued slaughter since Netanyahu and co. are not held accountable for their war crimes.
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If you keep people in a cage and continue to fragment and shrink the boundaries of that cage, they will fight back with whatever weapons they have.
It is highly disingenuous to paint this conflict as anything other than a continuation of Israeli occupation and brutalization. The improvised rockets fired into Israel are an all-too-convenient pretext for this continued slaughter since Netanyahu and co. are not held accountable for their war crimes.
If that were true, then the assault would have begun months ago.
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If you keep people in a cage and continue to fragment and shrink the boundaries of that cage, they will fight back with whatever weapons they have.
It is highly disingenuous to paint this conflict as anything other than a continuation of Israeli occupation and brutalization. The improvised rockets fired into Israel are an all-too-convenient pretext for this continued slaughter since Netanyahu and co. are not held accountable for their war crimes.
If that were true, then the assault would have begun months ago.
Israel has all the time in the world. Palestine doesn't.
"Months ago" is meaningless.
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If you keep people in a cage and continue to fragment and shrink the boundaries of that cage, they will fight back with whatever weapons they have.
It is highly disingenuous to paint this conflict as anything other than a continuation of Israeli occupation and brutalization. The improvised rockets fired into Israel are an all-too-convenient pretext for this continued slaughter since Netanyahu and co. are not held accountable for their war crimes.
If that were true, then the assault would have begun months ago.
Israel has all the time in the world. Palestine doesn't.
"Months ago" is meaningless.
If you don't support Hamas, then why are you acting like you do?
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There's a story circulating that 3 little boys were playing on the beach and were killed...deliberately. The gunners on artillery used to murder them bracketed them to get a better shot.
Ironbite-tell me again how this is justified?
You know the most insane part is that this whole thin was witnessed by several international journalists, one of who was kicking the ball around with the boys just minutes before.
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If you keep people in a cage and continue to fragment and shrink the boundaries of that cage, they will fight back with whatever weapons they have.
It is highly disingenuous to paint this conflict as anything other than a continuation of Israeli occupation and brutalization. The improvised rockets fired into Israel are an all-too-convenient pretext for this continued slaughter since Netanyahu and co. are not held accountable for their war crimes.
If that were true, then the assault would have begun months ago.
Israel has all the time in the world. Palestine doesn't.
"Months ago" is meaningless.
If you don't support Hamas, then why are you acting like you do?
Oh look, MORE false equivalency by Ultimate Paragon.
I don't support Hamas. I do, however, support an oppressed people. A people who have been driven out of their homes. A people who have been killed. The children who have been intentionally targetted and slaughtered.
To claim that they are equavalent to Israel in their blame is to blame them for being oppressed. And that, to me, is anathema to basic human dignity. YOU are anathema to basic human dignity.
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If you don't support Hamas, then why are you acting like you do?
oboy herewego...
UP, did you just pull the false dichotomy fallacy on us? I support the freedom of the occupied Palestinian territories to trade and travel outside their borders and possibly gain statehood -- or better yet, get rid of the whole Jewish/Muslim theocracy nonsense and turn Israel and Palestine into one secular state where all people are appropriately represented. How you spin that into supporting Hamas is only indicative of your desperation in losing this obscene debate.
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If you keep people in a cage and continue to fragment and shrink the boundaries of that cage, they will fight back with whatever weapons they have.
It is highly disingenuous to paint this conflict as anything other than a continuation of Israeli occupation and brutalization. The improvised rockets fired into Israel are an all-too-convenient pretext for this continued slaughter since Netanyahu and co. are not held accountable for their war crimes.
If that were true, then the assault would have begun months ago.
Israel has all the time in the world. Palestine doesn't.
"Months ago" is meaningless.
If you don't support Hamas, then why are you acting like you do?
Oh look, MORE false equivalency by Ultimate Paragon.
I don't support Hamas. I do, however, support an oppressed people. A people who have been driven out of their homes. A people who have been killed. The children who have been intentionally targetted and slaughtered.
To claim that they are equavalent to Israel in their blame is to blame them for being oppressed. And that, to me, is anathema to basic human dignity. YOU are anathema to basic human dignity.
I know you don't support Hamas. I was merely asking why you go so far to defend them, while simultaneously criticizing Israel to the point of borderline demonization.
I agree, this is contemptible. And I'm not blaming them for being oppressed. What I am doing is blaming Hamas for its role in this tragedy. If they hadn't performed their military coup in Gaza, none of this would have happened. Essentially, they created a problem so that they could solve it.
Oh, and now you've stooped to personal attacks. Classy. Well, congratulations. You've just been reported.
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Oh please, like you're one to talk about personal attacks.
Also, none of this wouldn't have happened if Israel hadn't fucking invaded Palestine.
You can try to blame Hamas and Palestine all you want, but Israel shares most of the fucking blame in this.
I will believe Hamas and Palestine are equivalent to Israel when Hamas starts bulldozing Israeli homes, driving the Israeli people into a corner, launching military grade bombs at their hospitals, their homes, etc.
Honestly, right now, the IDF is three times as much the terrorists as Hamas is.
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Oh please, like you're one to talk about personal attacks.
Also, none of this wouldn't have happened if Israel hadn't fucking invaded Palestine.
You can try to blame Hamas and Palestine all you want, but Israel shares most of the fucking blame in this.
I will believe Hamas and Palestine are equivalent to Israel when Hamas starts bulldozing Israeli homes, driving the Israeli people into a corner, launching military grade bombs at their hospitals, their homes, etc.
Honestly, right now, the IDF is three times as much the terrorists as Hamas is.
Um, Palestinians have done some monstrous things. Ever hear of the Coastal Road Massacre?
I agree, the Palestinian people as a whole should not have to suffer. However, Hamas's role in this tragedy should not be ignored or whitewashed.
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Oh please, like you're one to talk about personal attacks.
Also, none of this wouldn't have happened if Israel hadn't fucking invaded Palestine.
You can try to blame Hamas and Palestine all you want, but Israel shares most of the fucking blame in this.
I will believe Hamas and Palestine are equivalent to Israel when Hamas starts bulldozing Israeli homes, driving the Israeli people into a corner, launching military grade bombs at their hospitals, their homes, etc.
Honestly, right now, the IDF is three times as much the terrorists as Hamas is.
Um, Palestinians have done some monstrous things. Ever hear of the Coastal Road Massacre?
The Coastal Road massacre of 1978 was an attack involving the hijacking of a bus on Israel's Coastal Highway in which 38 Israeli civilians, including 13 children, were killed, and 71 were wounded
A drop in the bucket compared to what Israel's currently, at this very moment, doing to Palestine.
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Oh please, like you're one to talk about personal attacks.
Also, none of this wouldn't have happened if Israel hadn't fucking invaded Palestine.
You can try to blame Hamas and Palestine all you want, but Israel shares most of the fucking blame in this.
I will believe Hamas and Palestine are equivalent to Israel when Hamas starts bulldozing Israeli homes, driving the Israeli people into a corner, launching military grade bombs at their hospitals, their homes, etc.
Honestly, right now, the IDF is three times as much the terrorists as Hamas is.
Um, Palestinians have done some monstrous things. Ever hear of the Coastal Road Massacre?
The Coastal Road massacre of 1978 was an attack involving the hijacking of a bus on Israel's Coastal Highway in which 38 Israeli civilians, including 13 children, were killed, and 71 were wounded
A drop in the bucket compared to what Israel's currently, at this very moment, doing to Palestine.
Why are you treating this like a numbers game?
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Oh please, like you're one to talk about personal attacks.
Also, none of this wouldn't have happened if Israel hadn't fucking invaded Palestine.
You can try to blame Hamas and Palestine all you want, but Israel shares most of the fucking blame in this.
I will believe Hamas and Palestine are equivalent to Israel when Hamas starts bulldozing Israeli homes, driving the Israeli people into a corner, launching military grade bombs at their hospitals, their homes, etc.
Honestly, right now, the IDF is three times as much the terrorists as Hamas is.
Um, Palestinians have done some monstrous things. Ever hear of the Coastal Road Massacre?
The Coastal Road massacre of 1978 was an attack involving the hijacking of a bus on Israel's Coastal Highway in which 38 Israeli civilians, including 13 children, were killed, and 71 were wounded
A drop in the bucket compared to what Israel's currently, at this very moment, doing to Palestine.
Why are you treating this like a numbers game?
Is that the best defense you've got to my argument? Deflecting won't save you from reality.
Then ignoring the numbers (which is a terrible thing to do), the level of atrocity happening to the Palestinean people is easily FAR worse than what happened in that massacre. Their home are bulldozed, they've been quarantined (and I've yet to see any actual evidence that the quarantine has lifted), their children are being intentionally targetted and killed...
If Hamas had been doing what Israel's been doing, you wouldn't be defending their actions, you would be crying about how they're dirty terrorists.
All I'm doing is what you refuse to do - scrutinize Israel's actions and decry their actions as terrorism, which they fit every single qualifer for and then some.
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Oh please, like you're one to talk about personal attacks.
Also, none of this wouldn't have happened if Israel hadn't fucking invaded Palestine.
You can try to blame Hamas and Palestine all you want, but Israel shares most of the fucking blame in this.
I will believe Hamas and Palestine are equivalent to Israel when Hamas starts bulldozing Israeli homes, driving the Israeli people into a corner, launching military grade bombs at their hospitals, their homes, etc.
Honestly, right now, the IDF is three times as much the terrorists as Hamas is.
Um, Palestinians have done some monstrous things. Ever hear of the Coastal Road Massacre?
The Coastal Road massacre of 1978 was an attack involving the hijacking of a bus on Israel's Coastal Highway in which 38 Israeli civilians, including 13 children, were killed, and 71 were wounded
A drop in the bucket compared to what Israel's currently, at this very moment, doing to Palestine.
Why are you treating this like a numbers game?
Is that the best defense you've got to my argument? Deflecting won't save you from reality.
Then ignoring the numbers (which is a terrible thing to do), the level of atrocity happening to the Palestinean people is easily FAR worse than what happened in that massacre. Their home are bulldozed, they've been quarantined (and I've yet to see any actual evidence that the quarantine has lifted), their children are being intentionally targetted and killed...
If Hamas had been doing what Israel's been doing, you wouldn't be defending their actions, you would be crying about how they're dirty terrorists.
All I'm doing is what you refuse to do - scrutinize Israel's actions and decry their actions as terrorism, which they fit every single qualifer for and then some.
I'm not defending Israel's actions. Their actions during the assault on Gaza have been contemptible. My point is that both sides must share the blame for these tragedies. Your one-sided narrative of Israeli oppression isn't just inaccurate, it's offensive. You may not intend to do it, but you're throwing the deaths of innocent Israelis under the bus, calling them "unimportant".
You're also ignoring the geopolitical complexities and historical context. It doesn't justify what Israel is doing, but it does explain the root causes of what's going on. Hardly anything is black and white.
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*eats popcorn*
Ironbite-anyone wanna see how far up Israel's ass UP can get or are we gonna call it here?
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I'm not defending Israel's actions. Their actions during the assault on Gaza have been contemptible. My point is that both sides must share the blame for these tragedies. Your one-sided narrative of Israeli oppression isn't just inaccurate, it's offensive. You may not intend to do it, but you're throwing the deaths of innocent Israelis under the bus, calling them "unimportant".
You're also ignoring the geopolitical complexities and historical context. It doesn't justify what Israel is doing, but it does explain the root causes of what's going on. Hardly anything is black and white.
My one-sided narrative? That's rich.
I have never said Hamas has no blame in this matter. But I have said, repeatedly, that Israel shares the MOST blame, because they do.
Blaming the victim is never acceptable, and Palestine is the victim in all of this. Insisting that they are anywhere near equal blame is insulting to everything.
You keep bringing up Hamas, but it is you who is ignoring why Palestine turned to Hamas in the first place.
And the answer to that is Israel is Oppressing Them.
There isn't a "both sides are at fault" here. The median fallacy is especially fallacious in this context. By insisting that Palestine/Hamas and Israel are shouldering equal blame, you are the one throwing the oppressed people of Palestine under the bus.
It's like blaming a an assault victim for smashing his assaulter's face in after being assaulted.
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tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.
I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.
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*eats popcorn*
Ironbite-anyone wanna see how far up Israel's ass UP can get or are we gonna call it here?
*Joins ironbite and eats a cupcake* Hmm.. Tastes like marshmallows..
I think the Demon beast Resurrection Way "up the ass out the mouth"
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There isn't a "both sides are at fault" here. The median fallacy is especially fallacious in this context. By insisting that Palestine/Hamas and Israel are shouldering equal blame, you are the one throwing the oppressed people of Palestine under the bus.
It's like blaming a an assault victim for smashing his assaulter's face in after being assaulted.
yes and no. both sides are at fault. it's not a fallacy in that indeed hamas and israel are guilty. does that make the israelis or the palestinians more guilty than the other? no, it does not. hamas and israel are shouldering equal blame insomuch as neither wants to give way in this international dick-waving contest. palestinians are oppressed physically, israelis are oppressed legally (i'm sure most israelis find their government's policies atrocious). most want this conflict to end.
off topic: in france, self-defence does work that way: if the victim deals more damage to the aggressor, he's the one to go down. screwed up, isn't it?
right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.
blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.
edit: as of two weeks ago, the idf has suspended any possibility to opt out of the draft. soldiers are going to the front without any choice in the matter, and defectors or dodgers are being severely punished.
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There isn't a "both sides are at fault" here. The median fallacy is especially fallacious in this context. By insisting that Palestine/Hamas and Israel are shouldering equal blame, you are the one throwing the oppressed people of Palestine under the bus.
It's like blaming a an assault victim for smashing his assaulter's face in after being assaulted.
yes and no. both sides are at fault. it's not a fallacy in that indeed hamas and israel are guilty. does that make the israelis or the palestinians more guilty than the other? no, it does not. hamas and israel are shouldering equal blame insomuch as neither wants to give way in this international dick-waving contest. palestinians are oppressed physically, israelis are oppressed legally (i'm sure most israelis find their government's policies atrocious). most want this conflict to end.
off topic: in france, self-defence does work that way: if the victim deals more damage to the aggressor, he's the one to go down. screwed up, isn't it?
right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.
blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.
edit: as of two weeks ago, the idf has suspended any possibility to opt out of the draft. soldiers are going to the front without any choice in the matter, and defectors or dodgers are being severely punished.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
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tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.
I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.
Given that Hamas doesn't think much of them, they won't make any inroads.
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tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.
I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.
Given that Hamas doesn't think much of them, they won't make any inroads.
Give that IS seems to not care what others want, I'm curious how Hamas will react when the question of "Join us" comes up. Assuming their little escapades in Saudi goes as planned of course.
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I really hope this leads both Israel and Palestine to ask "what the hell are we doing"?
I hope it leads to the U.S. pulling foreign aid to Israel and levying sanctions against them. If only...
Afterwards unicorns will dance across rainbows and Republicans will stop fearing any kind of change!
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tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.
I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.
Given that Hamas doesn't think much of them, they won't make any inroads.
Give that IS seems to not care what others want, I'm curious how Hamas will react when the question of "Join us" comes up. Assuming their little escapades in Saudi goes as planned of course.
I think Hamas' answer will be along the lines of 7.62mmR. And Israel just might help.
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tl;dr version of this thread: Israel and Palestine are both being directed by utter bastards who need to be removed, with one side being significantly more powerful than the other.
I'm actually curious how this conflict will go if the Islamic State (as they seem to be refering to themselves now) manages to join in.
Given that Hamas doesn't think much of them, they won't make any inroads.
Give that IS seems to not care what others want, I'm curious how Hamas will react when the question of "Join us" comes up. Assuming their little escapades in Saudi goes as planned of course.
I think Hamas' answer will be along the lines of 7.62mmR. And Israel just might help.
I was actually thinking there is the possibility that Hamas and IS would join to fight Israel before spiraling into a war between themselves if IS tries to get too... Hands on, I guess. Considering IS doesn't recognize Israel and supports Palestine.
On the other hand, Israel and Palestine might just need a third party to get their butts in line with eachother.
Aw, speculation is a fun thing.
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right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.
blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.
Not quite from what I can see, which I admit is not much, but from my perspective, Palestine barely has any kind of single unified form of government. Hamas isn't so much in control of Palestine as it is a fragmented violent organization full of people angry at Israel. I dont think Hamas could stop attacks on Israel because they lack any kind of cohesive command structure. It wouldn't surprise me if the people actually doing the attacks are just angry civilians.
If we take the killing and attacks on both side out of the equation, what Israel is doing to Palestine with the ghettos, expanding housing projects and the complete disenfranchising of the Palestinian people, it can really be likened directly to Apartheid. Is it surprising that the Palestinian people have no other option but to turn to violence?
They have tried to solve thing diplomatically. Last time this flared up the peace process was completely destroyed because on the day negotiations were supposed to start Israel declared plans for another round of housing expansion into Palestinian territories. Palestine tried to become recognized as a state and gain international protection from Israel by appealing to the UN, but were vetoed by Israels sucker ally America.
Saying both are equally at fault might have been true once. Lately though, as Israel becomes more oppressive, the blame is steadily pointing at them alone. The Palestinians literally have no other option but to fire essentially harmless rockets into Israel in a feeble gesture of self defense. The only other option for them is to just lie down and die.
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https://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Gazan-sotakatsomo/145286
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https://www.riemurasia.net/kuva/Gazan-sotakatsomo/145286
That reminds me way too much of a painting from back in the Civil War.
Apparently the practice hasn't changed very much.
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I rather think the casualty rate of 5 as compared to 500 is all that really is needed to show that Israel is clearly in the wrong here.
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right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.
blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.
Not quite from what I can see, which I admit is not much, but from my perspective, Palestine barely has any kind of single unified form of government. Hamas isn't so much in control of Palestine as it is a fragmented violent organization full of people angry at Israel. I dont think Hamas could stop attacks on Israel because they lack any kind of cohesive command structure. It wouldn't surprise me if the people actually doing the attacks are just angry civilians.
If we take the killing and attacks on both side out of the equation, what Israel is doing to Palestine with the ghettos, expanding housing projects and the complete disenfranchising of the Palestinian people, it can really be likened directly to Apartheid. Is it surprising that the Palestinian people have no other option but to turn to violence?
They have tried to solve thing diplomatically. Last time this flared up the peace process was completely destroyed because on the day negotiations were supposed to start Israel declared plans for another round of housing expansion into Palestinian territories. Palestine tried to become recognized as a state and gain international protection from Israel by appealing to the UN, but were vetoed by Israels sucker ally America.
Saying both are equally at fault might have been true once. Lately though, as Israel becomes more oppressive, the blame is steadily pointing at them alone. The Palestinians literally have no other option but to fire essentially harmless rockets into Israel in a feeble gesture of self defense. The only other option for them is to just lie down and die.
It's not as simple as that. Hamas built a freaking monument to the rocket attacks against Israel. Whether they're responsible or not, that's just poor taste.
And the fragmentation of the Palestinian authority is Hamas's fault. In fact, their coup in Gaza is responsible for many of the problems facing Palestinians.
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right now, however, your simile is only partially true: it's like penalizing an oppressed population based on what rival mafias do to each other.
blame the warhawks, not the doves. it's a shame that both sides are under the yoke of the hawks.
Not quite from what I can see, which I admit is not much, but from my perspective, Palestine barely has any kind of single unified form of government. Hamas isn't so much in control of Palestine as it is a fragmented violent organization full of people angry at Israel. I dont think Hamas could stop attacks on Israel because they lack any kind of cohesive command structure. It wouldn't surprise me if the people actually doing the attacks are just angry civilians.
If we take the killing and attacks on both side out of the equation, what Israel is doing to Palestine with the ghettos, expanding housing projects and the complete disenfranchising of the Palestinian people, it can really be likened directly to Apartheid. Is it surprising that the Palestinian people have no other option but to turn to violence?
They have tried to solve thing diplomatically. Last time this flared up the peace process was completely destroyed because on the day negotiations were supposed to start Israel declared plans for another round of housing expansion into Palestinian territories. Palestine tried to become recognized as a state and gain international protection from Israel by appealing to the UN, but were vetoed by Israels sucker ally America.
Saying both are equally at fault might have been true once. Lately though, as Israel becomes more oppressive, the blame is steadily pointing at them alone. The Palestinians literally have no other option but to fire essentially harmless rockets into Israel in a feeble gesture of self defense. The only other option for them is to just lie down and die.
It's not as simple as that. Hamas built a freaking monument to the rocket attacks against Israel. Whether they're responsible or not, that's just poor taste.
That is indeed in poor taste.
You know what's in even more poor taste?
Bulldozing people's homes and replacing them with homes for your people.
And the fragmentation of the Palestinian authority is Hamas's fault. In fact, their coup in Gaza is responsible for many of the problems facing Palestinians.
No, Israel is responsible for many of the problems facing Palestinians because they're the one actually doing things.
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From another thread, but I can't ignore it:
I concur. I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line. If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.
???
So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?
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From another thread, but I can't ignore it:
I concur. I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line. If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.
???
So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?
Difference is, I wouldn't us that as an excuse to kill innocent bystanders. And Hamas created that desperate situation.
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From another thread, but I can't ignore it:
I concur. I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line. If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.
???
So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?
Difference is, I wouldn't us that as an excuse to kill innocent bystanders. And Hamas created that desperate situation.
Hamas created that desperate situation by refusing to hand over their wallet when Israel mugged them. I guess in light of all the death and mayhem it would have been nicer if they had been a good little victim and just given up but that doesn't change the fact that they are the victim here.
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From another thread, but I can't ignore it:
I concur. I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line. If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.
???
So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?
Difference is, I wouldn't us that as an excuse to kill innocent bystanders. And Hamas created that desperate situation.
Hamas created that desperate situation by refusing to hand over their wallet when Israel mugged them. I guess in light of all the death and mayhem it would have been nicer if they had been a good little victim and just given up but that doesn't change the fact that they are the victim here.
No, they created it by seizing power in Gaza by force.
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From another thread, but I can't ignore it:
I concur. I've never believed in fighting fair when lives are on the line. If some fuck tried to mug me, I wouldn't hesitate to fight dirty.
???
So does this make you an asshole like Hamas or does this make Hamas a 'decent guy' (in a desperate situation) like you?
Difference is, I wouldn't us that as an excuse to kill innocent bystanders. And Hamas created that desperate situation.
Hamas created that desperate situation by refusing to hand over their wallet when Israel mugged them. I guess in light of all the death and mayhem it would have been nicer if they had been a good little victim and just given up but that doesn't change the fact that they are the victim here.
No, they created it by seizing power in Gaza by force.
And the fact that Israel did the same damn thing has nothing to do with the situation?
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Pretty sure it was here but I'd like to point out that there was no coup when Hamas took over. They were voted in by the people.
Ironbite-very scared people who had Israel's knife to their throats at the time.
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Pretty sure it was here but I'd like to point out that there was no coup when Hamas took over. They were voted in by the people.
Ironbite-very scared people who had Israel's knife to their throats at the time.
Israel had already withdrawn from Gaza. And it's true that they were elected at first, but then they capitalized on that by taking over in a military coup.
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Oh so I guess you're going to just listen to whatever bullshit you want eh? Fine by me.
Ironbite-can't say I've had an intelligent conversation with you so far so why start now?
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I'm not defending Israel's actions. Their actions during the assault on Gaza have been contemptible. My point is that both sides must share the blame for these tragedies.
The side that could end the conflict holds all responsibility for acts committed in prosecution of it, by both sides, including predictable attacks committed irrationally to lash out against them. Including those of forty years ago which you bring up for some reason. Hamas wouldn't hurt an (Israeli) fly if Israel stopped trying to steal their goddamn land. Indeed, Hamas had just about fallen apart until Israel gave them this massive gift.
I note the silly dishonest attempts to paint us all as supporters of Hamas. I also note that Palestinians are a Semitic people.
No, they created it by seizing power in Gaza by force.
Indeed. Hamas created the Israeli occupation of the West Bank (1968-???) by the illegitimate use of electoral force in 2006. Fortunately, Israel and the US armed Fatah and they were able to employ the Legitimate Firearms of Democracy in order to take over what was left of the West Bank. Which is good.
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Seriously, are people blaming Israel here? Sure, I don't like all their leaders or policies, but show me where in Likud's platform you can find the complete destruction of all Arabs. Show me where Israel has deliberately targeted civilians. Show me where Israeli schools have taught their children to commit martyrdom. If the so called Palestinians loved their children more than they hated Jews, then maybe there could be peace.
Come on guys, I've been reading posts on this forum for a long time. You guys are way too smart to be defending the Islamists.
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Wow....just...wow.
Ironbite-*slow claps*
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Come on guys, I've been reading posts on this forum for a long time. You guys are way too smart to be defending the Islamists.
1. If you think we're smart, then maybe the reason we've come to a different conclusion than you is because we're smarter than you.
2. The mere fact that you dismiss the Palestinian people as "Islamists" shows that you are prejudiced, maybe even bigoted, and therefore, you are approaching the situation from a faulty premise automatically.
If you had even read the topic, you would have seen the proof of what you're asking for. Including the part where Israel soldiers intentionally aimed at Palestinian kids and killed them.
I will not waste time addressing the rest of your post, because not only have those points been addressed already, you are relying heavily on "poisoning the well", so to speak.
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It is not about "defending islamists." The outrage here is over the fact that Israel IS targeting civilians by bombing Gaza.
No one here says they want Hamas to shoot rockets at Israel or to send their kids as suicide bombers, we are simply saying that Israel should not be indiscriminately bombing a city. The estimated casualties are already over 500 with 100 children killed by this attack. That certainly seems like Israel is targeting civilians.
If the so called Palestinians loved their children more than they hated Jews, then maybe there could be peace.
a) Palestinians HAVE occasionally tried to get peace and some of the civilians would like to see the agression end but when Israel keeps pushing them it is not suprising that many of them wish to push back.
b) "so called Palestinians?" Well what should they be called if not Palestinians?
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Seriously, are people blaming Israel here? Sure, I don't like all their leaders or policies, but show me where in Likud's platform you can find the complete destruction of all Arabs.
The Party charter.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs"
Palestinians have no rights. If they're angry about it, we're happy to bomb them flat.
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Seriously, are people blaming Israel here? Sure, I don't like all their leaders or policies, but show me where in Likud's platform you can find the complete destruction of all Arabs.
The Party charter.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs"
Palestinians have no rights. If they're angry about it, we're happy to bomb them flat.
That's not what it says. The charter calls for the Palestinians to not have an independent state (which is admittedly extreme), but it only says they cannot infringe on Israel's national security and right to exist (which even many moderates Palestinians deny). I specifically asked for where in Likud's platform they called for the destruction of all Arabs (as in, killing them all for the crime of existing).
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Seriously, are people blaming Israel here? Sure, I don't like all their leaders or policies, but show me where in Likud's platform you can find the complete destruction of all Arabs.
The Party charter.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs"
Palestinians have no rights. If they're angry about it, we're happy to bomb them flat.
That's not what it says. The charter calls for the Palestinians to not have an independent state (which is admittedly extreme), but it only says they cannot infringe on Israel's national security and right to exist (which even many moderates Palestinians deny). I specifically asked for where in Likud's platform they called for the destruction of all Arabs (as in, killing them all for the crime of existing).
Do you acknowledge that Likud's founding document denies Palestinians any substantive rights?
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What about the Israeli politicians who want to start a genocide?
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/16/371556/israel-must-kill-all-palestinian-mothers/ (Funny line from her wikipedia page: In response to the reaction to her comments, Shaked wrote an op-ed accusing the "militant, leftist propaganda machine" of "looking for every opportunity to make Israel the culprit".)
Do they have to write it down on their official party charter to be able to do it? Is there some kind of magical force that prevents a genocide unless it is specifically mentioned on the party charter?
Shaked was elected, her party has support and the party believes that: "Jews are divinely commanded to retain control over the Land of Israel." Which pretty much means that they have no desire to make peace with Palestinians as they wish to take control of the entire Israel region.
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Do you acknowledge that Likud's founding document denies Palestinians any substantive rights?
It does not. The charter acknowledges the right of Palestinians to self govern as long as they do not infringe on Israel's right to exist. Seeing as how Likud was founded after Israel had fought (and won) several wars to defend their own existence, the denial of the Palestinian right to a sovereign government was merely a response to the reality of just who they were dealing with.
Same goes for Israeli politicians who say occasional stupid stuff in emotional moments. It is simply a lie that Israel is responsible for the hatred their neighbors feel towards them. Every time Israel concedes (often giving back land they won in a war they didn't start), they are rewarded with more rocket attacks. The group which carries out those attacks is in turn rewarded by legitimate electoral victory. Hamas et al oppose Israel because their pedophile thug who founded their religion told them to hate the Jews. If they want a fight, I say sit back and let Israel give them a fight. I will enjoy it immensely.
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Oh wow. Wooooooow
Ironbite-there are depths to your ignorance that even angels fear to tread
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Bearing in mind, Hamas/Palestine's rocket attacks are home made rockets that, while they can theoretically cause harm to people, can't even crack a frigging sidewalk, and they have no real way of aiming it.
Compare this to the building demolishing, precision-aimed bombs that Israel's been dropping on hospitals.
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Seriously, are people blaming Israel here? Sure, I don't like all their leaders or policies, but show me where in Likud's platform you can find the complete destruction of all Arabs.
The Party charter.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs"
Palestinians have no rights. If they're angry about it, we're happy to bomb them flat.
That's not what it says. The charter calls for the Palestinians to not have an independent state (which is admittedly extreme), but it only says they cannot infringe on Israel's national security and right to exist (which even many moderates Palestinians deny). I specifically asked for where in Likud's platform they called for the destruction of all Arabs (as in, killing them all for the crime of existing).
Do you acknowledge that Likud's founding document denies Palestinians any substantive rights?
I do. But I don't like Likud anyway. Vote for Kadima!
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Do you acknowledge that Likud's founding document denies Palestinians any substantive rights?
It does not. The charter acknowledges the right of Palestinians to self govern as long as they do not infringe on Israel's right to exist.
No, it doesn't. It's quite clear. Palestinians have no right to self-govern, nor do they have a right to vote in Israeli elections or any protections under Israeli law. They are to remain stateless forever - or, preferably, go the hell away.
My personal favourite part is the reference to Israeli control of Palestinian ecology - which, again, shall be controlled by the IDF in the interests of Israel. Even better, unlike Palestine, Israel has actually acted upon these stated goals. No government of Israel has ever accepted the right of a Palestinian state to exist, unlike Fatah. This is why none currently does.
Every time Israel concedes (often giving back land they won in a war they didn't start), they are rewarded with more rocket attacks.
This is probably the greatest fraud of all (second maybe to your blaming of the Six-day and Yom Kippur Wars on the Palestinians). Israel has never given up one inch of land. Israel has yet to make a single concession to any other country, ever, even the Egyptians. Not one inch of Israeli land conquered through war has been acquired legitimately - indeed, the modern state system is founded entirely on the principle that all such land claims based on force are entirely illegitimate always everywhere and forever.
Hamas et al oppose Israel because their pedophile thug who founded their religion told them to hate the Jews. If they want a fight, I say sit back and let Israel give them a fight. I will enjoy it immensely.
This is straight uncut racism, the good stuff. Indeed, it is anti-semitism (since Palestinians are a semitic people).
Seriously, are people blaming Israel here? Sure, I don't like all their leaders or policies, but show me where in Likud's platform you can find the complete destruction of all Arabs.
The Party charter.
"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs"
Palestinians have no rights. If they're angry about it, we're happy to bomb them flat.
That's not what it says. The charter calls for the Palestinians to not have an independent state (which is admittedly extreme), but it only says they cannot infringe on Israel's national security and right to exist (which even many moderates Palestinians deny). I specifically asked for where in Likud's platform they called for the destruction of all Arabs (as in, killing them all for the crime of existing).
Do you acknowledge that Likud's founding document denies Palestinians any substantive rights?
I do. But I don't like Likud anyway. Vote for Kadima!
That's nice. The current government, however, believes that Palestinians are subhumans. All policy is based on that principle. Palestinians have no rights to own land, so settlements are fine. Indeed, any response to the monstrous and violent occupation is illegitimate, since subhumans have no rights. Subhumans have no right to import food beyond their basic minimum requirement to maintain existence, much like a dog you don't like much. Even then that may be excessive. And if we choose, we can bomb them with illegal weapons all day long. Murder is only a crime when committed against people, not animals.
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This is straight uncut racism, the good stuff. Indeed, it is anti-semitism (since Palestinians are a semitic people).
No. Just, no. While I may hold negative views on a certain religion, I hold no such views towards people based on race or ethnicity. My disdain for Hamas is not because they are Arabic, but because they hold a toxic religious ideology which treats women as property and any nonconformists as enemies to be slain. I have avoided making personal attacks so far, but when you pull the race card (inappropriately), you have lost.
As for the comment about Israel never giving back any land, that is false. Israel has given back the Sinai Peninsula.
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This is straight uncut racism, the good stuff. Indeed, it is anti-semitism (since Palestinians are a semitic people).
As for the comment about Israel never giving back any land, that is false. Israel has given back the Sinai Peninsula.
When was Israel granted the Sinai Peninsula?
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This is straight uncut racism, the good stuff. Indeed, it is anti-semitism (since Palestinians are a semitic people).
No. Just, no. While I may hold negative views on a certain religion, I hold no such views towards people based on race or ethnicity. My disdain for Hamas is not because they are Arabic, but because they hold a toxic religious ideology which treats women as property and any nonconformists as enemies to be slain. I have avoided making personal attacks so far, but when you pull the race card (inappropriately), you have lost.
I agree that you weren't aiming that statement at an entire ethnicity, but the context makes it dubiously difficult to distinguish the two. At least in the context of Israel blockading and brutalizing an entire nation (not just its leaders!), what they are doing is indefensible and I find your attempts to defend Israel to be morally repugnant.
It may not be racism, and I do agree with you about Islam's vile teachings (you'll find more of the same in Judaism and Christianity), but Israel is oppressing an entire nation and you are vastly oversimplifying the concerns of an occupied people. Historical revisionism and racism both have nasty consequences -- you should carefully consider the things you are saying about Israel and how that matches up with Israel's actions.
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I do. But I don't like Likud anyway. Vote for Kadima!
>Implying Hatnuah isn't superior.
Six versus two, m80.
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Israel uses Palestinians as human shields
http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.530993?v=D5C84F8353B58C29BFB6FFE8B113F0CB (http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/.premium-1.530993?v=D5C84F8353B58C29BFB6FFE8B113F0CB)
Israel often targets civilian houses it does not suspect of being used as arms dumps. Obviously Israel routinely claims that Hamas is using those houses as arms dumps anyway.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israelgaza-un-must-impose-arms-embargo-and-mandate-international-investigation-civilian-death-t (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/israelgaza-un-must-impose-arms-embargo-and-mandate-international-investigation-civilian-death-t)
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Israel is justified in acting to suppress the ability of Hamas to threaten its citizens with rockets.
Israel is not justified in killing large numbers of Gaza civillians.
Hamas has built their infrastructure in a way that ensures any meaningful strike on their rocket firing abilities will incur civillian casualties.
Israel has taken further steps to avoid civillian casualties than any combatant in a comparable conflict in history.
Civillian casualties still occur.
Israel's military is not acting callously or with intent to cause civillian casualties.
Many innocents still die.
This is Hamas' fault.
This is also Israel's fault.
Rockets are still being launched at Israel.
Israel still has an obligation to its citizens to stop the rocket fire.
In short, one huge clusterfuck.
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I truly take umbrage with your statement that Israel has taken steps to avoid civilian casualties in this bombardment.
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Hamas has built their infrastructure in a way that ensures any meaningful strike on their rocket firing abilities will incur civillian casualties.
Which is not the fault of the Palestinians - the hospitals were there long before Hamas built anything there.
Not to mention we're just taking some of this on Israel's good word - that every bombing site is related to Hamas.
Incidentally, that hospital that was bombed... wasn't sitting on top of anything related to Hamas. Anything that was even remotely related... was in a different spot.
I've said this once, and I've said it again: Even if Hamas is using human shields (which "children playing on the beach" ARE NOT HUMAN SHIELDS. Those were the children that were intentionally targetted and murdered by the IDF, by the way), YOU DO NOT SHOOT THE HUMAN SHIELDS.
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Israel has taken further steps to avoid civillian casualties than any combatant in a comparable conflict in history.
Strong claim. Can you back it up?
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Israel has taken further steps to avoid civillian casualties than any combatant in a comparable conflict in history.
Strong claim. Can you back it up?
They said so.
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Okay, could we start citing legitimate sources?
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Okay, could we start citing legitimate sources?
ARE YOU CALLING THEM LIARS YOU ANTI-SEMITE NEO-NAZI BASTARD?
SHAME ON YOU!
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(Just for the record, I am not openly taking sides here, this isn't exactly a polite discussion about are favourite cartoons)
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Just to update everyone, the death toll I'm currently seeing are over 1,000 Palestinians (many civilians) and 37 Israelis dead (all of them soldiers as far as I can tell).
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http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/27/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?c=homepage-t&page=2 (http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/27/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?c=homepage-t&page=2)
An Israeli mortar shell hit a school that was being used as a UN shelter, killing 16. Israel denies that anyone was killed by the errant mortar shell.
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The official IDF spokesperson twitter account is just delightful (https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson)
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David Draman's been retweeting it non-stop since this whole shitfest began.
Ironbite-really wish he'd cut if off but don't have the heart to tell him.
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Notice how Israel has been willing to halt their attacks, whereas Hamas has not. Note also that the Islamists brag of trying to "drive the dogs into the sea".
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Keep on drinking that kool-aid, Nemo.
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Notice how Israel has been willing to halt their attacks, whereas Hamas has not. Note also that the Islamists brag of trying to "drive the dogs into the sea".
Israel just bombed a school that was being used as a shelter, killing 16 people. Your argument is not valid.
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Notice how Israel has been willing to halt their attacks, whereas Hamas has not. Note also that the Islamists brag of trying to "drive the dogs into the sea".
Hamas was the first to ask for ceasefire this time and Israel refused.
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Israel is justified in acting to suppress the ability of Hamas to threaten its citizens with rockets.
Israel is not justified in killing large numbers of Gaza civillians.
Hamas has built their infrastructure in a way that ensures any meaningful strike on their rocket firing abilities will incur civillian casualties.
Israel has taken further steps to avoid civillian casualties than any combatant in a comparable conflict in history.
Civillian casualties still occur.
Israel's military is not acting callously or with intent to cause civillian casualties.
Israel still has an obligation to its citizens to stop the rocket fire.
The Israeli government could do this quite simply, by not provoking attack. Alternatively, Israel could simply resolve the conflict. Hamas can do neither of these things - nor even continue its law-and-order campaign that has successfully discouraged other groups from using bottle rockets. The patrols that had maintained that campaign were crushed by Israel in order to create a justification for their crushing. Israel wanted to attack Gaza. It found an opportunity to do so, by exploiting their murder by a different group. Attacking Gaza doesn't cost them anything, or at least not very much - barely more than violating treaty obligations and ceasefires by besieging it.
Israel's military is not acting callously or with intent to cause civillian casualties.
This is simply not true. I strongly suggest you read one of Amnesty International's reports - or B'tselem's reports - on the actions of the IDF. Pretty eye-opening. Obviously, they have to be anti-semitic and so on now, or else the IDF would be very embarrassed. Also note that other countries have done worse. However, rarely are these reports actually denied and proven wrong. The IDF doubts Amnesty's ancestry, but the story remains fact.
Perhaps because Israel is a democracy they are permitted to use torture? I'm not sure. There are many attempted justifications. We may use torture, because our critics are all anti-semites, and would not otherwise the use of torture is another. Obviously, Amnesty stops having to be anti-semites when it does something Israel likes; condemn Iran, for instance. The Jews in B'tselem are also anti-semites - except you can't call them that, you call them "self-hating" like Noam Chomsky. Like moderate African-Americans or white non-racists, they're race traitors and so on. It's all very democratic and rational, the Jewish state.
I also note that Israel would certainly collapse if it did not use illegal weapons (white phosphorous) illegal measures (torture, murder) or target civilians. If it failed to blow up that school last week, the Palestinians certainly would have crushed its tiny 9 million strong army, tanks, attack helicopters and nuclear weapons. By contrast, no Palestinian is under threat at any time. It is certainly not justified for a Palestinian to do something so criminal as to defend herself from constant attack every day of her life. Compared to the average citizen of Gaza, every citizen of Israel is in constant fear for their life. This is why it is so crucial that Israel's security - but not Palestine's - be ensured, justifying illegal and extreme measures absolutely required to do so.
Notice how Israel has been willing to halt their attacks, whereas Hamas has not. Note also that the Islamists brag of trying to "drive the dogs into the sea".
As is Israel, except a river. And Israel is doing a far better job, I'd say?
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I agree that Israel must stop targeting civilians, or do a much better job of limiting civilian casualties. But Hamas isn't even trying to hit military targets.
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I agree that Israel must stop targeting civilians, or do a much better job of limiting civilian casualties. But Hamas isn't even trying to hit military targets.
Were Palestine's and Israel's firepower and autonomy even slightly comparable, I would agree. They aren't. Israel has Gaza in a cage and a desperate populance is firing a few unguided rockets back at them.
The playing field isn't anywhere close to level and Israel bears all responsibility for its attacks. Now, if they lifted the blockade and let Palestine be an autonomous state, *then* they would have some small justification in defending their borders against attacks. Something tells me an autonomous Palestinian population would quickly depose of extremist organizations and that wouldn't be an issue, though.
Unless Israel decides to make it an issue with repeated bombardments.
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I say we see Nemo for what he is. And that is a member of the IDF's version of the 50 cent party.
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I say we see Nemo for what he is. And that is a member of the IDF's version of the 50 cent party.
If you wish, you can examine FSTDT to see that I have a history here. I'm not getting paid. I just recognize Islam for what it is, and I sympathize for the people, including those in Israel, who live in circumstances where they get to witness the true nature of Islam on a daily basis. Aside from defending myself against ad hominems, however, I will not post in this particular topic anymore if that's what everyone would prefer. When a person has become emotionally attached to an idea, no amount of reason can dissuade them, and I can see the people here are deeply emotionally attached to the Palestinians.
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...recognize Islam for what it is.....OK I'LL BITE!
Ironbite-what is Islam?
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I say we see Nemo for what he is. And that is a member of the IDF's version of the 50 cent party.
If you wish, you can examine FSTDT to see that I have a history here. I'm not getting paid. I just recognize Islam for what it is, and I sympathize for the people, including those in Israel, who live in circumstances where they get to witness the true nature of Islam on a daily basis. Aside from defending myself against ad hominems, however, I will not post in this particular topic anymore if that's what everyone would prefer. When a person has become emotionally attached to an idea, no amount of reason can dissuade them, and I can see the people here are deeply emotionally attached to the Palestinians.
You have yet to counter a single piece of evidence that any of us have provided in regards to the true nature of Israel's attacks on the Palestinian people. You are the one who is deeply emotionally attached to vilifying the Palestinians just because they're Muslim.
I don't want you to not post. I want you to actually address that which you've been ignoring, to step up to the plate, and to face reality for what it is, not what you want it to be.
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I agree that Israel must stop targeting civilians, or do a much better job of limiting civilian casualties. But Hamas isn't even trying to hit military targets.
As Israel wants. A grand total of two (2) Israeli civilians have been killed in the fighting, compared to 38 soldiers. What is the IDF's civilian/soldier ratio?
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Notice how Israel has been willing to halt their attacks, whereas Hamas has not. Note also that the Islamists brag of trying to "drive the dogs into the sea".
As opposed to Israel's actually attempts to drive the people of Gaza and Palestine off their land?
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...recognize Islam for what it is.....OK I'LL BITE!
Ironbite-what is Islam?
SPOOOOOOOKY HEAD-WEAR!
OOOGABOOGABOOGA!
(Yes, I lied about not taking sides, so shell me.)
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(https://33.media.tumblr.com/9fad40867ba4cda50c8c300c107c3d77/tumblr_n9e07bRNfS1qb9auyo1_500.jpg)
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(https://33.media.tumblr.com/9fad40867ba4cda50c8c300c107c3d77/tumblr_n9e07bRNfS1qb9auyo1_500.jpg)
I kind of feel bad laughing at that picture. Is that real? If it is, then damn does that drive home a point. I'm at a loss for words at the Israel/Gaza situation.
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Yep, real. (http://www.timesofisrael.com/owl-hurt-by-hamas-fire-recovering/)
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I haven't posted here yet, have I? Allow me to join the pro-Palestine side. What Israel is doing has all the hallmarks of a disgusting theocracy bent on ethnic cleansing. The death tolls on each side say it all in my opinion.
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(https://33.media.tumblr.com/9fad40867ba4cda50c8c300c107c3d77/tumblr_n9e07bRNfS1qb9auyo1_500.jpg)
This reminds me of how, several years ago, a donkey/mule was used in a suicide bombing, which prompted PETA to send a passionate plea to however was in charge of that group to "spare the animals".
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7qFACSfd_k
Charming lot, aren't they?
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I haven't posted here yet, have I? Allow me to join the pro-Palestine side. What Israel is doing has all the hallmarks of a disgusting theocracy bent on ethnic cleansing. The death tolls on each side say it all in my opinion.
If Israel really wanted to commit ethnic cleansing, they'd have killed far more people. I agree, Israel's going to far, but to call it ethnic cleansing is a grotesque exaggeration. If they really wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, why would they give warnings before their airstrikes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7qFACSfd_k
Charming lot, aren't they?
Those people are shitheads, true. But on the other hand, there are a lot of Israelis protesting the devastation.
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I haven't posted here yet, have I? Allow me to join the pro-Palestine side. What Israel is doing has all the hallmarks of a disgusting theocracy bent on ethnic cleansing. The death tolls on each side say it all in my opinion.
If Israel really wanted to commit ethnic cleansing, they'd have killed far more people. I agree, Israel's going to far, but to call it ethnic cleansing is a grotesque exaggeration. If they really wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, why would they give warnings before their airstrikes?
Good PR. No, seriously, good PR.
The fact that they're attacking often before they say they will says a lot. Like what happened with the hospital.
Not to mention the two schools that were UN Shelters that got bombed. Killing children and families.
Those were places that they evacuated TO.
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If this whole thing isn't a genocide campaign then I don't know what it is. Israel has for the past couple of decades been on the offensive. I'm sorry but I am on Palestine's side. The Zionists in Israel learned all too well from Hitler and his regime.
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If this whole thing isn't a genocide campaign then I don't know what it is. Israel has for the past couple of decades been on the offensive. I'm sorry but I am on Palestine's side. The Zionists in Israel learned all too well from Hitler and his regime.
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitlercard2.jpg)
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If this whole thing isn't a genocide campaign then I don't know what it is. Israel has for the past couple of decades been on the offensive. I'm sorry but I am on Palestine's side. The Zionists in Israel learned all too well from Hitler and his regime.
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitlercard2.jpg)
The difference is, this time, "the Hitler card" as you so dismissively put it is actually valid. Reductio ad Hitlerum is only a fallacy when the comparison to Hitler isn't valid.
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If this whole thing isn't a genocide campaign then I don't know what it is. Israel has for the past couple of decades been on the offensive. I'm sorry but I am on Palestine's side. The Zionists in Israel learned all too well from Hitler and his regime.
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitlercard2.jpg)
The difference is, this time, "the Hitler card" as you so dismissively put it is actually valid. Reductio ad Hitlerum is only a fallacy when the comparison to Hitler isn't valid.
You really think the comparison is valid? What Israel is doing is cruel, but it's not genocide.
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If "kill 'em all and take their land" ain't genocide, I wanna know what is.
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Not yet, but Israel is certainly comparable to Apartheid South Africa.
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If "kill 'em all and take their land" ain't genocide, I wanna know what is.
They don't want to take Gaza, they just want to cripple Hamas.
Not yet, but Israel is certainly comparable to Apartheid South Africa.
Maybe. But it's a bit of a stretch. And Hamas is objectively worse than the ANC.
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If "kill 'em all and take their land" ain't genocide, I wanna know what is.
They don't want to take Gaza, they just want to cripple Hamas
I think you're being just a liiiittle too trusting of what Israel says they want, as opposed to what they actually want. Don't look at their words, look at their actions. They're bombing UN schools and hospitals, that's not just something you can toss off as "well, insurgents might be using it as a base". If you're bombing schools and hospitals, it's clear that you don't care about the populace there.
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If "kill 'em all and take their land" ain't genocide, I wanna know what is.
They don't want to take Gaza, they just want to cripple Hamas
I think you're being just a liiiittle too trusting of what Israel says they want, as opposed to what they actually want. Don't look at their words, look at their actions. They're bombing UN schools and hospitals, that's not just something you can toss off as "well, insurgents might be using it as a base". If you're bombing schools and hospitals, it's clear that you don't care about the populace there.
I agree, Israel is being too trigger-happy and callous. But that doesn't prove anything about their intentions.
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A question, if Israel is indiscriminately bombing UN schools and hospitals is that grounds for the UN to take action? What about the US? I think it's about time that both organizations rethink their views on Israel.
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Yes, Israel needs to face the consequences of this. They have every right to defend themselves, but they have no right to slaughter innocent people.
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If "kill 'em all and take their land" ain't genocide, I wanna know what is.
They don't want to take Gaza, they just want to cripple Hamas
I think you're being just a liiiittle too trusting of what Israel says they want, as opposed to what they actually want. Don't look at their words, look at their actions. They're bombing UN schools and hospitals, that's not just something you can toss off as "well, insurgents might be using it as a base". If you're bombing schools and hospitals, it's clear that you don't care about the populace there.
I agree, Israel is being too trigger-happy and callous. But that doesn't prove anything about their intentions.
If Hamas launched guided missiles at Israeli hospitals and schools and killed even a fraction of those killed in the UN shelters, there would be immediate condemnation and no pussy-footing around the issue of "doesn't prove anything about their intentions" or "commendable restraint". Why the double standard, UP? Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist?
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If "kill 'em all and take their land" ain't genocide, I wanna know what is.
They don't want to take Gaza, they just want to cripple Hamas
I think you're being just a liiiittle too trusting of what Israel says they want, as opposed to what they actually want. Don't look at their words, look at their actions. They're bombing UN schools and hospitals, that's not just something you can toss off as "well, insurgents might be using it as a base". If you're bombing schools and hospitals, it's clear that you don't care about the populace there.
I agree, Israel is being too trigger-happy and callous. But that doesn't prove anything about their intentions.
If Hamas launched guided missiles at Israeli hospitals and schools and killed even a fraction of those killed in the UN shelters, there would be immediate condemnation and no pussy-footing around the issue of "doesn't prove anything about their intentions" or "commendable restraint". Why the double standard, UP? Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist?
There are a number of reasons.
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If Hamas launched guided missiles at Israeli hospitals and schools and killed even a fraction of those killed in the UN shelters, there would be immediate condemnation and no pussy-footing around the issue of "doesn't prove anything about their intentions" or "commendable restraint". Why the double standard, UP? Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist?
Because they were driven to these measures. It doesn't justify it, but it's important to note.
Driven by what, exactly? Israel has total control over the airspace and they collude with Egypt to not let any refugees out of the Gaza strip. This is straight-up ethnic cleansing and you apparently don't have the courage to say so.
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If Hamas launched guided missiles at Israeli hospitals and schools and killed even a fraction of those killed in the UN shelters, there would be immediate condemnation and no pussy-footing around the issue of "doesn't prove anything about their intentions" or "commendable restraint". Why the double standard, UP? Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist?
Because they were driven to these measures. It doesn't justify it, but it's important to note.
Driven by what, exactly? Israel has total control over the airspace and they collude with Egypt to not let any refugees out of the Gaza strip. This is straight-up ethnic cleansing and you apparently don't have the courage to say so.
By the fact that a flipping terrorist organization illegally seized power through violence. And it's not ethnic cleansing. You want to see that? Look at what Saddam Hussein did to the Kurds. If it were ethnic cleansing, many, many more Palestinians would be dead.
Speaking of ethnic cleansing, Hamas would definitely do it if they had the chance. Is it wrong for Israel to not want to give them that chance?
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Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.
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Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.
I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians. That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.
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The difference is, this time, "the Hitler card" as you so dismissively put it is actually valid. Reductio ad Hitlerum is only a fallacy when the comparison to Hitler isn't valid.
Everyone thinks their Hitler comparison is valid. Everyone on the receiving end thinks its invalid. It accomplishes nothing.
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Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.
I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians. That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.
Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.
And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.
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Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.
I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians. That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.
Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.
And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitlercard2.jpg)
And Israel was planning on withdrawing from the West Bank... until Sharon had his stroke and Hamas started taking over Gaza.
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Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.
I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians. That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.
Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.
And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.
And Israel was planning on withdrawing from the West Bank... until Sharon had his stroke and Hamas started taking over Gaza.
Could you please provide a link from a credible source for this (try the links in Wikipedia articles)
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Ultimate Paragon, I am curious about something.
I would like to hear your thoughts about this.
Lets ignore the conflict completely. Ignore sides rocket bombs airstrikes and terrorist organizations.
Israel continually increases its land into the west bank and Gaza though settlement projects. These basically involve apartheid era forced removals where they bulldoze anything there and build nice houses for Israel citizens. These settlements are quite nice, but Palestinians are not allowed to live there. If we want to be hopelessly optimistic from an Israel point of view we can say that those Palestinians were squatters and shouldn't have been living there, to help justify Israels actions.
The thing is, what this also means in reverse is that the land that the Palestinians can use to live is constantly decreasing forcing more people to live closer together. This has a number of effects like increasing crime, lowering standards of living, increasing poverty, decreasing the ability for healthcare to keep up. Basically it makes everything worse.
Add to this that all of Palestine is under siege. All movement is restricted and no one gets in or out of Palestine without Israel allowing it. As it stands such basic supplies like medicine and concrete are completely restricted. This means that those houses in Palestine are of very poor quality, and medical care is even worse than usual.
Now all of this is ample reason for the Palestinians to get uppity. However, lets assume that some magical force comes over them and they choose to comply completely and just accept anything that happens to them.
When Israel finally has taken over all the Palestinian land, what are the Palestinians supposed to do? This is a serious honest question. What do you expect them to do? They cant leave Palestine because of the siege. They cant live in Israel, and they would basically no longer have even an inch of land left. What do you expect them to do at that point? I would really like to know.
Lastly, if you think the ANC were better than Hamas, you live with some seriously rose tinted glasses. The ANC committed some atrocious crimes, often specifically against civilians. The only reason you even think they are nice and better is that at the end of the day they won the civil war, and the terrorists became freedom fighters.
Right now Israel and Palestine are pretty much South African Apartheid in all but name. Although there is one other difference, the whites saw the blacks as a useful source of basically slave labor, and so at least looked after them enough to still be useful. Israel doesn't care about the Palestinians at all.
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I disagree with the settlement policy. I want Israel to withdraw from Palestinian territory (with the exception of East Jerusalem). However, Hamas is not the solution.
If the ANC was as bad as Hamas, then Nelson Mandela deserved all he suffered in prison and then some. While the ANC did commit terrorist attacks, they did so with reluctance and regret. Moreover, the ANC included a lot of non-blacks. They did not use human shields, they did not gloat over the deaths of Afrikaner civilians, they did not call for genocide, and they did not want to establish a repressive bigoted theocracy.
Most important, they cared about the well-being of the people they fought for. Hamas sees the people of Gaza as tools. The lopsided death toll is at least party due to Hamas using human shields, storing weapons in civilian buildings, and hiding behind the people they say they want to protect. It's also part of their media strategy. People see civilian deaths and blame them on Israel. It's true that it was Israel who pulled the trigger, but Hamas was the reason they ended up in those positions in the first place.
That's not all. Hamas has tortured more Palestinians than Israel, they persecute sexual minorities, they're shamelessly misogynistic, and they're anti-Semitic. Jews aren't the only religious group they persecute, either. They also persecute Shiites, Christians, and atheists. With friends like them, Palestine needs no enemies.
The ANC was born of hope, Hamas was born from hate. If you think the groups are similar beyond the superficialities, you need to read up more.
Israel has every right to attack Gaza. My criticism comes from the methods they use. This is a situation that calls for a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. Hamas is a cancer, one that must be removed with minimal harm to the Palestinians.
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Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.
I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians. That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.
Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.
And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitlercard2.jpg)
Would it make you feel better if I used the term 'manifest destiny' instead? Personally, I think lebensraum is the more appropriate term since its implementation involved the political machinations of modern nation states rather than a nation simply rolling over a more primitive indigenous culture.
And Israel was planning on withdrawing from the West Bank... until Sharon had his stroke and Hamas started taking over Gaza.
So what stopped them?
The west bank isn't, and hasn't been, under Hamas control since before Sharon's stroke. They have played by the rules Israel set out and what has it got them? I guess you could argue that Israel is nice enough to spit on it rather than just giving it to them dry, but that's a pretty damn far cry from what was 'promised.'
The irony is that you and I both know that being nice to the West Bank is the only real solution to this problem. Israel needs to show everyone in Gaza that if they would only play nice they could have their freedom too. Hamas support would wither overnight. Instead, Israel plays the exact opposite game and reinforces the Hamas position that it won't ever accept a Palestinian state except at gunpoint.
It's almost like they want to provoke a fight. I would expect a former special forces captain and U.N. ambassador to know better that that... unless that is exactly what he wanted.
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Spare me the comparisons. Israel isn't wiping them out right away because that would finally provoke outrage and get the Israeli regime wiped out by the international community. Netanyahu does it slowly so that the mainstream media indulges his excuses.
I disagree with Netanyahu's position and his methods, but I don't think he wants to commit genocide against the Palestinians. That's like saying Bill Clinton wanted to exterminate Sudanese Muslims.
Look up lebensraum and tell me where you think this is going.
And before you give me any bullshit about how Gaza doesn't have any settlements anymore the West Bank still does -- that is about as meaningful as saying Texas shouldn't get grumpy because it is only Florida that is getting taken over and not them.
(http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/hitlercard2.jpg)
Would it make you feel better if I used the term 'manifest destiny' instead? Personally, I think lebensraum is the more appropriate term since its implementation involved the political machinations of modern nation states rather than a nation simply rolling over a more primitive indigenous culture.
And Israel was planning on withdrawing from the West Bank... until Sharon had his stroke and Hamas started taking over Gaza.
So what stopped them?
The west bank isn't, and hasn't been, under Hamas control since before Sharon's stroke. They have played by the rules Israel set out and what has it got them? I guess you could argue that Israel is nice enough to spit on it rather than just giving it to them dry, but that's a pretty damn far cry from what was 'promised.'
The irony is that you and I both know that being nice to the West Bank is the only real solution to this problem. Israel needs to show everyone in Gaza that if they would only play nice they could have their freedom too. Hamas support would wither overnight. Instead, Israel plays the exact opposite game and reinforces the Hamas position that it won't ever accept a Palestinian state except at gunpoint.
It's almost like they want to provoke a fight. I would expect a former special forces captain and U.N. ambassador to know better that that... unless that is exactly what he wanted.
There's the problem. Israel did play nice with Gaza, and terrorists took over. Does it justify their expansion into the West Bank? No, but it does help to explain why they might be reluctant to withdraw.
And if Netanyahu is deliberately provoking a fight (I don't know if he is, but he might be), it's more likely because he wants to hold onto power. That's a terrible thing to do, but it's not worthy of a comparison to Hitler.
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FFS, could you please just provide a source for your accusation that HAMAS took over the West Bank?
Or SOMEBODY provide a source for something.
I can claim that HAMAS is run by various cats and it would mean shit.
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FFS, could you please just provide a source for your accusation that HAMAS took over the West Bank?
Or SOMEBODY provide a source for something.
I can claim that HAMAS is run by various cats and it would mean shit.
I never said Hamas took over the West Bank. All I said was that Hamas was part of the reason why Israel keeps building settlements there.
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FFS, could you please just provide a source for your accusation that HAMAS took over the West Bank?
Or SOMEBODY provide a source for something.
I can claim that HAMAS is run by various cats and it would mean shit.
I never said Hamas took over the West Bank. All I said was that Hamas was part of the reason why Israel keeps building settlements there.
(Apologies for type, I meant, Gaza, not west bank)
But srsly, could we all please start sourcing shit?
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FFS, could you please just provide a source for your accusation that HAMAS took over the West Bank?
Or SOMEBODY provide a source for something.
I can claim that HAMAS is run by various cats and it would mean shit.
I never said Hamas took over the West Bank. All I said was that Hamas was part of the reason why Israel keeps building settlements there.
(Apologies for type, I meant, Gaza, not west bank)
But srsly, could we all please start sourcing shit?
We'll see. In the meantime, here's a source:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/15/israel4 (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/jun/15/israel4)
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THANK YOU
The kittens are free to go now.
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The good thing about following WikiLeaks on twitter, I get to find out about nice little gobbits of information like this (https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08TELAVIV2447_a.html#efmAZWAbdAgIAja)
Israeli officials have confirmed to Embassy officials on multiple occasions that they intend to keep the Gazan economy functioning at the lowest level possible consistent with avoiding a humanitarian crisis
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/times-of-israel-genocide-article-post-deleted_n_5641971.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/times-of-israel-genocide-article-post-deleted_n_5641971.html)
Irredentism at work, everyone!
I also bet, being a good irredentist like my brother, UP supports Kosovo. After all, sovereignty is only for the democracies and democratically-minded terrorists!
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/times-of-israel-genocide-article-post-deleted_n_5641971.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/times-of-israel-genocide-article-post-deleted_n_5641971.html)
Irredentism at work, everyone!
I also bet, being a good irredentist, UP supports Kosovo. After all, sovereignty is only for the democracies!
Okay, that guy was a shithead, but that doesn't mean anything. That would be like saying the US government is like Pat Buchanan.
And I'm not an irredentist. I've never advocated an Israeli annexation of Palestinian territory. I believe that Palestine should have the right to exist. Stop putting words in my mouth.
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(http://d3dsacqprgcsqh.cloudfront.net/photo/a8bdZX3_700b.jpg)
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/times-of-israel-genocide-article-post-deleted_n_5641971.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/times-of-israel-genocide-article-post-deleted_n_5641971.html)
Irredentism at work, everyone!
I also bet, being a good irredentist, UP supports Kosovo. After all, sovereignty is only for the democracies!
I'm a gigantic furry, I love to yiff.
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/times-of-israel-genocide-article-post-deleted_n_5641971.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/01/times-of-israel-genocide-article-post-deleted_n_5641971.html)
Irredentism at work, everyone!
I also bet, being a good irredentist, UP supports Kosovo. After all, sovereignty is only for the democracies!
I'm a gigantic furry, I love to yiff.
I was about to call that an immature move, but then I realized what you were doing and I found myself chuckling.
Still an immature move.
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I haven't posted here yet, have I? Allow me to join the pro-Palestine side. What Israel is doing has all the hallmarks of a disgusting theocracy bent on ethnic cleansing. The death tolls on each side say it all in my opinion.
If Israel really wanted to commit ethnic cleansing, they'd have killed far more people. I agree, Israel's going to far, but to call it ethnic cleansing is a grotesque exaggeration. If they really wanted to wipe out the Palestinians, why would they give warnings before their airstrikes?
As Israel has shown in the past, murder is not the important element of ethnic cleansing. You don't necessarily want lots of people dead (bad PR) you only want the bare minimum required to create terror and ultimately, flight.
Of course, this proves that Israel does not act in self-defence.
If Hamas launched guided missiles at Israeli hospitals and schools and killed even a fraction of those killed in the UN shelters, there would be immediate condemnation and no pussy-footing around the issue of "doesn't prove anything about their intentions" or "commendable restraint". Why the double standard, UP? Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist?
Because they were driven to these measures. It doesn't justify it, but it's important to note.
Driven by what, exactly? Israel has total control over the airspace and they collude with Egypt to not let any refugees out of the Gaza strip. This is straight-up ethnic cleansing and you apparently don't have the courage to say so.
By the fact that a flipping terrorist organization illegally seized power through violence.
Indeed. Hamas illegally and violently seized power at the ballot box. Fortunately, Israel had the foresight to provide Fatah with peace-guns to contest that election, peacefully, on the streets.
Speaking of ethnic cleansing, Hamas would definitely do it if they had the chance. Is it wrong for Israel to not want to give them that chance?
Irrelevant and meaningless. If France was the world super-power as the US is now, what would that be like? Who knows. Maybe they'd have stayed in Algeria. It is irrelevant to our issue now - what are the borders of the Palestinian state, does Israel have a right to annex part of it, ect - what Hamas would do with nuclear weapons they don't have and never will ever.
I disagree with the settlement policy. I want Israel to withdraw from Palestinian territory (with the exception of East Jerusalem). However, Hamas is not the solution.
I think this is your primary error. You basically agree with Hamas on the substance; Israel is the aggressor in the conflict. Any legitimate peace agreement must include an end to the settlements, and be essentially based on the 1967 Green Line, with some negotiation over the status of Jerusalem. Gaza must be able to import food.
So you accept the legitimacy of Hamas' position. Israel is in the wrong. You just disagree with the use of force in this conflict by anyone but the aggressors. If you were a pacifist, you could legitimately criticise Hamas' use of force, though with the addendum that they didn't start nor can they end the conflict and their use of force is far lesser than the aggressors'. You aren't a pacifist. It's pure double-standards in favour of the side you admit is wrong.
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As Israel has shown in the past, murder is not the important element of ethnic cleansing. You don't necessarily want lots of people dead (bad PR) you only want the bare minimum required to create terror and ultimately, flight.
Of course, this proves that Israel does not act in self-defence.
If they wanted the Palestinians to leave Gaza, then why the blockade?
And they are acting in self-defense. Or do you expect them to ignore rocket attacks and raids from tunnels?
Indeed. Hamas illegally and violently seized power at the ballot box. Fortunately, Israel had the foresight to provide Fatah with peace-guns to contest that election, peacefully, on the streets.
Hamas took over Gaza through use of illegal force and they were the first to strike in the conflict.
Irrelevant and meaningless. If France was the world super-power as the US is now, what would that be like? Who knows. Maybe they'd have stayed in Algeria. It is irrelevant to our issue now - what are the borders of the Palestinian state, does Israel have a right to annex part of it, ect - what Hamas would do with nuclear weapons they don't have and never will ever.
False equivalence. France doesn't want to wipe the US off the map. Besides, Israel was founded on the mentality of "never again". Can you blame them for not wanting to take chances with a group that has repeatedly and vocally announced their utter loathing of them?
I think this is your primary error. You basically agree with Hamas on the substance; Israel is the aggressor in the conflict. Any legitimate peace agreement must include an end to the settlements, and be essentially based on the 1967 Green Line, with some negotiation over the status of Jerusalem. Gaza must be able to import food.
So you accept the legitimacy of Hamas' position. Israel is in the wrong. You just disagree with the use of force in this conflict by anyone but the aggressors. If you were a pacifist, you could legitimately criticise Hamas' use of force, though with the addendum that they didn't start nor can they end the conflict and their use of force is far lesser than the aggressors'. You aren't a pacifist. It's pure double-standards in favour of the side you admit is wrong.
My problem with Hamas is that they are a bunch of violent, cowardly, oppressive, bigoted, nihilistic religious fanatics who are single-mindedly committed to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a repressive theocracy. Their activities represent one of the biggest obstacles to peace. If you think all of the problems will be solved if Israel lifts the blockade and stops building settlements in the West Bank, I have no clue what to say, because if that's the case, you're obviously completely out of touch with reality.
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
Since the two situations are not similiar, the question is irrelevant.
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
Since the two situations are not similiar, the question is irrelevant.
Many of the civilian deaths are partly Hamas's fault.
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
We participated in the bloodiest conflict in history and used two of the deadliest weapons in history against other humans -- weapons which other countries have never used. That certainly puts us in the running for "the wrong", U.S. propaganda notwithstanding. But I digress.
Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist? Why does UP insist both sides are just as vile as the other, but that this somehow excuses Israel and not Palestine? It's almost as if UP totally buys into Israeli propaganda and refuses to face reality...
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
We participated in the bloodiest conflict in history and used two of the deadliest weapons in history against other humans -- weapons which other countries have never used. That certainly puts us in the running for "the wrong", U.S. propaganda notwithstanding. But I digress.
Why does Israel get a slap on the wrist? Why does UP insist both sides are just as vile as the other, but that this somehow excuses Israel and not Palestine? It's almost as if UP totally buys into Israeli propaganda and refuses to face reality...
You're so wrong, I don't know where to begin.
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Oh please do. I so want to see this.
Ironbite-*gets popcorn ready*
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
Since the two situations are not similiar, the question is irrelevant.
Many of the civilian deaths are partly Hamas's fault.
I see. so Hamas was forcing Israel to bomb Gaza through the use of missiles, helicopters, warplanes and the other high tech weapons, and Hamas forced them to use white phospurous and Flechette shells?
Hamas certainly aren't helping, but their threat amounts to the military equivalent of throwing stones by comparison.
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
Since the two situations are not similiar, the question is irrelevant.
Many of the civilian deaths are partly Hamas's fault.
I see. so Hamas was forcing Israel to bomb Gaza through the use of missiles, helicopters, warplanes and the other high tech weapons, and Hamas forced them to use white phospurous and Flechette shells?
Hamas certainly aren't helping, but their threat amounts to the military equivalent of throwing stones by comparison.
Nevertheless, Israel has an obligation to protect its people. Besides, I was referring to their use of human shields.
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
Since the two situations are not similiar, the question is irrelevant.
Many of the civilian deaths are partly Hamas's fault.
I see. so Hamas was forcing Israel to bomb Gaza through the use of missiles, helicopters, warplanes and the other high tech weapons, and Hamas forced them to use white phospurous and Flechette shells?
Hamas certainly aren't helping, but their threat amounts to the military equivalent of throwing stones by comparison.
Nevertheless, Israel has an obligation to protect its people. Besides, I was referring to their use of human shields.
Nevertheless, it doesn't matter if they're using human shields, you don't shoot the human shields.
Since you seem to be treating this like Hamas is holding Palestine hostage, this is the equivalent of Israel responding to a hostage situation by bombing everyone and letting God sort them out.
Not to mention, need I remind you, The IDF specifically targetted Palestinian children PLAYING ON A BEACH and specifically SHOT THEM TO DEATH, right in front of news reporters no less that had been playing with them mere minutes ago.
It boggles my mind how you can defend that.
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
Since the two situations are not similiar, the question is irrelevant.
Many of the civilian deaths are partly Hamas's fault.
I see. so Hamas was forcing Israel to bomb Gaza through the use of missiles, helicopters, warplanes and the other high tech weapons, and Hamas forced them to use white phospurous and Flechette shells?
Hamas certainly aren't helping, but their threat amounts to the military equivalent of throwing stones by comparison.
Nevertheless, Israel has an obligation to protect its people. Besides, I was referring to their use of human shields.
Nevertheless, it doesn't matter if they're using human shields, you don't shoot the human shields.
Since you seem to be treating this like Hamas is holding Palestine hostage, this is the equivalent of Israel responding to a hostage situation by bombing everyone and letting God sort them out.
Not to mention, need I remind you, The IDF specifically targetted Palestinian children PLAYING ON A BEACH and specifically SHOT THEM TO DEATH, right in front of news reporters no less that had been playing with them mere minutes ago.
It boggles my mind how you can defend that.
That's indefensible. However, Israel does give warning for its airstrikes.
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*munches popcorn*
Ironbite-that's....amazing.
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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/04/google-play-offers-bomb-gaza-game-that-lets-you-kill-muslim-women-and-children/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/04/google-play-offers-bomb-gaza-game-that-lets-you-kill-muslim-women-and-children/)
What...the...fuck?
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How about another prespective here.
How many Palestine civilians have died compared to Israeli?
Here's a hint, the numbers aren't remotely close.
America had very few civilian deaths in World War II compared to most of the other combatants. Does that mean we were in the wrong?
Since the two situations are not similiar, the question is irrelevant.
Many of the civilian deaths are partly Hamas's fault.
I see. so Hamas was forcing Israel to bomb Gaza through the use of missiles, helicopters, warplanes and the other high tech weapons, and Hamas forced them to use white phospurous and Flechette shells?
Hamas certainly aren't helping, but their threat amounts to the military equivalent of throwing stones by comparison.
Nevertheless, Israel has an obligation to protect its people. Besides, I was referring to their use of human shields.
Nevertheless, it doesn't matter if they're using human shields, you don't shoot the human shields.
Since you seem to be treating this like Hamas is holding Palestine hostage, this is the equivalent of Israel responding to a hostage situation by bombing everyone and letting God sort them out.
Not to mention, need I remind you, The IDF specifically targetted Palestinian children PLAYING ON A BEACH and specifically SHOT THEM TO DEATH, right in front of news reporters no less that had been playing with them mere minutes ago.
It boggles my mind how you can defend that.
That's indefensible. However, Israel does give warning for its airstrikes.
Yeah, how kind of them. "Oh hey, we're going to be killing a whole bunch of you at this time. Might want to make an effort to get away. Oh, but we're not letting you leave oh no, we're still quarantining you in a ridiculously tight space, so make do. Oh, and we may also start bombing you an entire hour before we said we would, so you might want to hurry. What? The nearest Hamas installation is miles away? Psh! Details details. All we have to do is claim that you were carrying weapons in your building and the world will forgive us and shake their fist at Hamas. That's what you get for being desperate enough to turn to the only help you could get."
It's also kind of Israel to target buildings such as hospitals and UN Shelters inside schools. It's so kind of them to kill entire families and children. And it's all excusable... because they warned people.
...
So tell me this.
Where is your outrage at Israel? Where is it? You keep saying that Israel shouldn't be doing this, but then you're pissed at Hamas for attacks that pale in comparison in both effectivity and atrocity to what Israel is doing.
So why the hell aren't you pissed of about Israel? If it was Hamas bulldozing Israel houses and replacing them with Palestinian homes, you would be frothing at the mouth. So why won't you get over your double standard and start blaming Israel for Israel's actions, instead of excusing them because of Hamas' actions?
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http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/04/google-play-offers-bomb-gaza-game-that-lets-you-kill-muslim-women-and-children/ (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/04/google-play-offers-bomb-gaza-game-that-lets-you-kill-muslim-women-and-children/)
What...the...fuck?
That's sick, man.
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That's indefensible. However...
And on and on it goes. UP has a hard time grasping the term "indefensible" when applied to his favorite belligerent in this ethnic cleansing campaign.
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http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians (http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians)
Oh, look! War crimes. But of course, Palestinian eyewitness testimony is unreliable!
Of course, fleeing civilians mean future militants so we can't have that!
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That's indefensible. However...
And on and on it goes. UP has a hard time grasping the term "indefensible" when applied to his favorite belligerent in this ethnic cleansing campaign.
"Ethnic cleansing".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians (http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-soldiers-shoot-and-kill-fleeing-civilians)
Oh, look! War crimes. But of course, Palestinian eyewitness testimony is unreliable!
Of course, fleeing civilians mean future militants so we can't have that!
I agree, that's a war crime.
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As Israel has shown in the past, murder is not the important element of ethnic cleansing. You don't necessarily want lots of people dead (bad PR) you only want the bare minimum required to create terror and ultimately, flight.
Of course, this proves that Israel does not act in self-defence.
If they wanted the Palestinians to leave Gaza, then why the blockade?
They want Palestinians to leave the West Bank. Bombing Gaza terrifies them.
And they are acting in self-defense. Or do you expect them to ignore rocket attacks and raids from tunnels?
There are options aside from invasion - for instance, negotiation. Israel might even not deliberately provoke attack.
Of course, you do not believe Palestinians have a right to self-defence as Israel has an unconditional right to.
Indeed. Hamas illegally and violently seized power at the ballot box. Fortunately, Israel had the foresight to provide Fatah with peace-guns to contest that election, peacefully, on the streets.
Hamas took over Gaza through use of illegal force and they were the first to strike in the conflict.
As the Democratic Party did.
Irrelevant and meaningless. If France was the world super-power as the US is now, what would that be like? Who knows. Maybe they'd have stayed in Algeria. It is irrelevant to our issue now - what are the borders of the Palestinian state, does Israel have a right to annex part of it, ect - what Hamas would do with nuclear weapons they don't have and never will ever.
False equivalence. France doesn't want to wipe the US off the map.
Maybe they would in a world the dominated. Better not negotiate with the EU, lest that come about.
Besides, Israel was founded on the mentality of "never again". Can you blame them for not wanting to take chances with a group that has repeatedly and vocally announced their utter loathing of them?
Sure can. Paranoia is no justification for murder or theft.
I think this is your primary error. You basically agree with Hamas on the substance; Israel is the aggressor in the conflict. Any legitimate peace agreement must include an end to the settlements, and be essentially based on the 1967 Green Line, with some negotiation over the status of Jerusalem. Gaza must be able to import food.
So you accept the legitimacy of Hamas' position. Israel is in the wrong. You just disagree with the use of force in this conflict by anyone but the aggressors. If you were a pacifist, you could legitimately criticise Hamas' use of force, though with the addendum that they didn't start nor can they end the conflict and their use of force is far lesser than the aggressors'. You aren't a pacifist. It's pure double-standards in favour of the side you admit is wrong.
My problem with Hamas is that they are a bunch of violent, cowardly, oppressive, bigoted, nihilistic religious fanatics who are single-mindedly committed to the destruction of Israel and the establishment of a repressive theocracy. Their activities represent one of the biggest obstacles to peace. If you think all of the problems will be solved if Israel lifts the blockade and stops building settlements in the West Bank, I have no clue what to say, because if that's the case, you're obviously completely out of touch with reality.
No response?
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Both sides' governments are assholes who don't accurately represent the populations opinions, and should quit their shit, calm the fuck down, and stop killing each other's civilians. Can we shut the fuck up about it now?
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Can we shut the fuck up about it now?
No. Also, fuck you.
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Both sides' governments are assholes who don't accurately represent the populations opinions, and should quit their shit, calm the fuck down, and stop killing each other's civilians. Can we shut the fuck up about it now?
Well that's the truly sad thing, the Israeli population gives their government a 80% odd approval rating for how they are handling the situation. Which makes sense when you consider that at last I saw the total number of Israeli civilian casualties was at 2. More people probably died in Israel from car accidents. The civilian population in Israel is completely insulated from the whole situation hell they were even treating the bombings as a spectator activity.
The Palestinians however, are being pretty much forced into Hamas' arms. There are reports of guys who received one of those warnings from Israel and took his family, his wife and his children to shelter with his sister in another part of the city. Israel bombs that too killing his whole family except for him. I dont know about you, but when you butcher everything someone has, they might just decide to become terrorists.
That doesn't even begin to address the multiple UN refugee shelters that have been targeted by Israel. I am pretty sure we all trust the UN's reporting on the situation, and they have pretty much be making sure that no militants or weapons are allowed in the shelters, however that hasn't stopped Israel from bombing the only safe place the Palestinian civilians have to go to.
Also, its also worth remembering that the west bank is basically an open air prison controlled by Israel. There is a population of over 1 million people there in a space smaller than LA. Then there is Israel targeting and destroying the Power station for the west bank, leaving the people of Palestine without any power for at least a year to come, probably longer seeing as no construction materials are allowed into Palestine because of the blockade. Oh, by the way, that power plant also ran the water processing facilities so the west bank is also without water now, for however long it takes to get the power plant fixed.
So tell me, if you lived in a cramped tiny area you were not allowed to leave, and could not import anything in to improve your life, and then the people who prevent your freedom of movement bulldozed your house to make houses for themselves. Then when someone tries to resist that treatment those same people then kill your entire family, destroy what little you had for a home and then deny you access to power and water. Wouldn't you join a terrorist organization and believe that those oppressors deserves to be destroyed? After all, at that point you really have nothing left except hatred towards the nation that caused all your suffering.
Not to mention the whole "Israel has a right to defend itself" fallacy. Hell if Israel pulled back to their original borders, the missiles from Palestine wouldn't even be able to reach them. Even if they didn't pull back, the Palestinian attacks are a complete non issue. This would be better equated to beating someone to near death for breathing on you. Israel hasn't even lost any infrastructure. Their homes and buildings are still perfectly fine despite the best efforts of the Palestinians to enact some kind of retribution.
To date Israel has killed at least 8 civilians per militant killed, as well as attacking UN facilities. Have you seen the photos and video footage from the west bank? There is no way to justify that level of slaughter and destruction, not even self defense.
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Seriously.
Calling it self defense would be like calling it self defense to go to a guy's house, slaughter his kids, his wife, his neighbors, and then him... all because he punched you in a bar.
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This is mostly just silly, but if you really think about it, it is more likely to succeed than most plans for peace in Israel.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/t1.0-9/1907758_666066300153534_4700999428153066274_n.jpg)
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Seriously.
Calling it self defense would be like calling it self defense to go to a guy's house, slaughter his kids, his wife, his neighbors, and then him... all because he punched you in a bar.
This.
Seriously, Israel has gotten cartoonishly villainous lately.
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"Does this war make me look fat?"
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/04/brave-israeli-woman-asks-does-the-war-in-gaza-make-me-look-fat/?onswipe_redirect=never (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/04/brave-israeli-woman-asks-does-the-war-in-gaza-make-me-look-fat/?onswipe_redirect=never)
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http://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-spokesman-i-have-jewish-friends-2014-8 (http://www.businessinsider.com/hamas-spokesman-i-have-jewish-friends-2014-8)
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This is almost like how the antagonists in the Killzone series have all the right in the world to defend themselves but are considered evil because they wear Nazi hats.
Ironbite-same situation.
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This is almost like how the antagonists in the Killzone series have all the right in the world to defend themselves but are considered evil because they wear Nazi hats.
Ironbite-same situation.
Both sides have done considerably worse than "wear Nazi hats".
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You've never played Killzone have you?
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You've never played Killzone have you?
No, I haven't.
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Both sides' governments are assholes who don't accurately represent the populations opinions, and should quit their shit, calm the fuck down, and stop killing each other's civilians. Can we shut the fuck up about it now?
Well that's the truly sad thing, the Israeli population gives their government a 80% odd approval rating for how they are handling the situation. Which makes sense when you consider that at last I saw the total number of Israeli civilian casualties was at 2. More people probably died in Israel from car accidents. The civilian population in Israel is completely insulated from the whole situation hell they were even treating the bombings as a spectator activity.
Would you mind throwing me a source for the 80% approval rating part? The closest I can find is a weekly update of Natanyahu's personal rating from back in the last week of July, which fluctuates pretty well (the weeks before went from 35-57% it appears).
The other part that bothers me is the 2 casualties part, most sources put it higher (Not by more than 5, mind you) and the only source I could find that keeps a static two is a poorly written part of Wikipedia that mentions Operation Piller of Defense from a couple years ago.
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This is almost like how the antagonists in the Killzone series have all the right in the world to defend themselves but are considered evil because they wear Nazi hats.
Ironbite-same situation.
Ahhh Killzone....with its planet of Cockney Space Nazis.
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Which is pretty much how I'm equating this current conflict to btw.
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Would you mind throwing me a source for the 80% approval rating part? The closest I can find is a weekly update of Natanyahu's personal rating from back in the last week of July, which fluctuates pretty well (the weeks before went from 35-57% it appears).
Quick google search (http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/diplomacy-defense/39332-140806-poll-israelis-stand-behind-their-prime-minister)
I had initially heard it on TYT but there are a couple of articles about the poll. It seems the majority of Israeli's want to continue the war and dont want the 72 hour ceasefire.
The other part that bothers me is the 2 casualties part, most sources put it higher (Not by more than 5, mind you) and the only source I could find that keeps a static two is a poorly written part of Wikipedia that mentions Operation Piller of Defense from a couple years ago.
The 2 might just be an old number. Even if you take 5 as the number its still maintains the same point I was trying to make. Even if we double that and make it 10 civilians killed it still means that Hamas has at least an 80% military to civilian kills as opposed to Israels 80% civilian to military kill rate.
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Would you mind throwing me a source for the 80% approval rating part? The closest I can find is a weekly update of Natanyahu's personal rating from back in the last week of July, which fluctuates pretty well (the weeks before went from 35-57% it appears).
Quick google search (http://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/diplomacy-defense/39332-140806-poll-israelis-stand-behind-their-prime-minister)
The other part that bothers me is the 2 casualties part, most sources put it higher (Not by more than 5, mind you) and the only source I could find that keeps a static two is a poorly written part of Wikipedia that mentions Operation Piller of Defense from a couple years ago.
The 2 might just be an old number. Even if you take 5 as the number its still maintains the same point I was trying to make. Even if we double that and make it 10 civilians killed it still means that Hamas has at least an 80% military to civilian kills as opposed to Israels 80% civilian to military kill rate.
63% is still a pretty strong point though, a lot better than I suspected before I read the article. Glad to see a lot of Israel is tired of the fighting caused by their version of the Republican Party.
I do have to question how many answered they support the fighting because they want the rest of the Palestinian Territories, or how many are thinking that the people in Palestine who are... Causing havok (lack of better wording on my end) for them are still loose.
I do also have to question how many say they support the fighting from a real "Oh yeah, for the best" point of view, and how many actually said "It was better than what could have been done (death wise)".
As for the second part, I was more being pedantic than anything. Like I said, it just bugged me when what appeared to be an old number was used.
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Seriously.
Calling it self defense would be like calling it self defense to go to a guy's house, slaughter his kids, his wife, his neighbors, and then him... all because he punched you in a bar.
Or even better - you go steal his house. He comes home and expresses dismay, so you blow up one of his children. He hits you later, in anger, so you nuke him. His family live in the front yard of your house and every now and then you tip the bins on their heads. Whenever they get mad you shoot one. You refuse to allow all but the bare minimum food to them. One of them gets pregnant, but you stop her from leaving (in the name of your security) and she has a miscarriage.
Then you blame them for the continuing conflict. Terrorism! Hamas! Mean words!
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Look Fred just described the plot of the Killzone series.
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Look Fred just described the plot of the Killzone series.
In fairness, the lack of cockney space nazis would ruin the plot...
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The ride never ends (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098)
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The ride never ends (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098)
So ten bajillion Palestinian kids dieting is fine, but one Israeli dying is the end of the world?
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The ride never ends (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098)
So ten bajillion Palestinian kids dieting is fine, but one Israeli dieting is end of the world?
A jihad on excess calories.
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The ride never ends (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098)
So ten bajillion Palestinian kids dieting is fine, but one Israeli dieting is end of the world?
A jihad on excess calories.
Obesity is haram.
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The ride never ends (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28900098)
So ten bajillion Palestinian kids dieting is fine, but one Israeli dieting is end of the world?
A jihad on excess calories.
Shrek sit in chair. "Excuse, please! waiter drink for me" waiter nods but trips on shrek's shoe. "I AM SUE!" waiter shouts, angry! Whaaaaaat?! Drinks that were carried spill EVERYWHERW!
Waters fills store. Everyone die! Except shrek! Shrek cries, filling store further. He walks all over dead friends. Travesty
The police come to store. "shrek!" they shout. They try to kill him with fire but alas this live him. Shrek eat fire. RAAAAAARTGH! He burp fire and kill police. He crie more
Years that is now
Shrek is an old Shrek now. He is 2940 year old and is lonely. No one love him. He starts to do therapy.
"hello mr. Ogre sir my name is Barry bee" said the sexy therapist. Shrek gasp! He had never seen someone sexy before. His wee get hard
"uh sir you have a banana in your pocket" barry says. Shrek says "oh yes this is in fact a banana" they share the banana over toast and the new york times
"so tell me your problem sir shrek" barry says he spits a little banana on shrek because he was chewing with his mouth open (do not try this kids) but shrek don't mind he likes pre-chewed banaajnaha
"I kill dead eople" shrek whisper. Barry gasp!
Barry say my wife died year ago. He looks into distance
So you are single? Shrek is very hap!
Shrek say, that couch look comf. Barry agrees, yes comf. Do you wish to try! Shrek nod in an ogre way and sit on coch.
Barry sexy walks oveer and sits as well. He does the yawn nad puts arm around shrek. Shrek blushes!
Shrek says have you ever been with a man before. Barry says no. shrek says have you ever been with an ogre before. Barry says yes exclusively ogre
Shrek says are you nervous. Barry shoves tape on his mouth and buries his body behind his practice. Shrek lay there for many day he die. Barry is a killer! Barry also was the waiter! Barry's wife was all the police! He was getting back at shrek! But before shrek die they do 1 sex and then die. Barry gets pregnant and has to raise the kids with his secrtetary Belinda wh ois a cockroasch. They fall in love and get married but belinda is arrested for insurance fraud and the babies hate their dad. He jumps off a bridge in portland orgon and dies a sad life THE END
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What the actual fuck
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What the actual fuck
Oh, hey. So that's what happened to the guy I drove mad a while ago.
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I don't get it. I really don't. Israel has killed countless Palestinian kids and the world doesn't bat an eye. Or rather it screams on high about how Israel needs to stop without doing anything to stop them. One Israeli kid dies and suddenly it'll intensify the conflict? How?
Ironbite-actual ground invasion instead of bombing runs?
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I don't get it. I really don't. Israel has killed countless Palestinian kids and the world doesn't bat an eye. Or rather it screams on high about how Israel needs to stop without doing anything to stop them. One Israeli kid dies and suddenly it'll intensify the conflict? How?
Ironbite-actual ground invasion instead of bombing runs?
Maybe they will just start being honest abut targeting civilians and tell the Palestinians "if you don't like it stop lobbing rockets at us (P.S. Leave!)."
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I don't get it. I really don't. Israel has killed countless Palestinian kids and the world doesn't bat an eye. Or rather it screams on high about how Israel needs to stop without doing anything to stop them. One Israeli kid dies and suddenly it'll intensify the conflict? How?
Ironbite-actual ground invasion instead of bombing runs?
Maybe they will just start being honest abut targeting civilians and tell the Palestinians "if you don't like it stop lobbing rockets at us (P.S. Leave!)."
(P.S.S. We won't let you leave!)
The border blockade is the most ridiculous aspect of this whole campaign. Something tells me Israel's populace would also become desperate if their neighbors colluded to block any travel or exchange of goods.
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I don't get it. I really don't. Israel has killed countless Palestinian kids and the world doesn't bat an eye. Or rather it screams on high about how Israel needs to stop without doing anything to stop them. One Israeli kid dies and suddenly it'll intensify the conflict? How?
Ironbite-actual ground invasion instead of bombing runs?
Maybe they will just start being honest abut targeting civilians and tell the Palestinians "if you don't like it stop lobbing rockets at us (P.S. Leave!)."
(P.S.S. We won't let you leave!)
The border blockade is the most ridiculous aspect of this whole campaign. Something tells me Israel's populace would also become desperate if their neighbors colluded to block any travel or exchange of goods.
Difference is, Israel hasn't been taken over by religiously fanatical terrorists.
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I don't get it. I really don't. Israel has killed countless Palestinian kids and the world doesn't bat an eye. Or rather it screams on high about how Israel needs to stop without doing anything to stop them. One Israeli kid dies and suddenly it'll intensify the conflict? How?
Ironbite-actual ground invasion instead of bombing runs?
Maybe they will just start being honest abut targeting civilians and tell the Palestinians "if you don't like it stop lobbing rockets at us (P.S. Leave!)."
(P.S.S. We won't let you leave!)
The border blockade is the most ridiculous aspect of this whole campaign. Something tells me Israel's populace would also become desperate if their neighbors colluded to block any travel or exchange of goods.
Difference is, Israel hasn't been taken over by religiously fanatical terrorists.
Haven't they?
Netanyahu would fit right in with ISIS if he was born a Muslim. His actions and rhetoric are extremist and it's only the technicality in the definition of the word "terrorism" excluding state actors that prevents us from using that word to appropriately describe this campaign. Netanyahu and co. want to exterminate the Palestinians -- if he hasn't outright said it, his actions say it for him.
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I don't get it. I really don't. Israel has killed countless Palestinian kids and the world doesn't bat an eye. Or rather it screams on high about how Israel needs to stop without doing anything to stop them. One Israeli kid dies and suddenly it'll intensify the conflict? How?
Ironbite-actual ground invasion instead of bombing runs?
Maybe they will just start being honest abut targeting civilians and tell the Palestinians "if you don't like it stop lobbing rockets at us (P.S. Leave!)."
(P.S.S. We won't let you leave!)
The border blockade is the most ridiculous aspect of this whole campaign. Something tells me Israel's populace would also become desperate if their neighbors colluded to block any travel or exchange of goods.
Difference is, Israel hasn't been taken over by religiously fanatical terrorists.
Haven't they?
Netanyahu would fit right in with ISIS if he was born a Muslim. His actions and rhetoric are extremist and it's only the technicality in the definition of the word "terrorism" excluding state actors that prevents us from using that word to appropriately describe this campaign. Netanyahu and co. want to exterminate the Palestinians -- if he hasn't outright said it, his actions say it for him.
If he wants to exterminate the Palestinians, he's really incompetent at it. And if anything, Hamas is closer to ISIS.
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Mr Glocky is out, you two.
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Mr Glocky is out, you two.
Shove it up your ass.
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What's the Jewish equivalent of a saint -- or is just called a Netanyahu?
If the man doesn't actually want them all dead, he certainly does feel no qualms about bringing them to heel without any regard for their humanity. I would imagine this stems from the fact that probably doesn't think they are human, or, if they are, they are of a considerably lower class and therefore not worthy of the same basic rights as Israelis. His position can best be summed up as 'they live here at our leisure and they should be grateful we allow them that much.'
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Considering he has the world supporting him, he's actually doing a quality job.
He may not be doing it quickly, but he sure has the world supporting him in his crusade.
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What's the Jewish equivalent of a saint -- or is just called a Netanyahu?
If the man doesn't actually want them all dead, he certainly does feel no qualms about bringing them to heel without any regard for their humanity. I would imagine this stems from the fact that probably doesn't think they are human, or, if they are, they are of a considerably lower class and therefore not worthy of the same basic rights as Israelis. His position can best be summed up as 'they live here at our leisure and they should be grateful we allow them that much.'
Assuming that's accurate, it's still kinder than how Hamas views Israel and the Jewish people.
Considering he has the world supporting him, he's actually doing a quality job.
He may not be doing it quickly, but he sure has the world supporting him in his crusade.
Define "supporting him".
And in any case, you don't seem to be complaining about the Egyptian role in the blockade.
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Magus's internet is on the fritz, so none of his posts are really getting through at the moment. Pasting this on his behalf:
You ask me to define "supporting him" then essentially defined it in the next sentence. Thank you.
But to further define it, I mean the fact that America basically throws money and support at Israel, and we've got entire crowds of people all over the world supporting everything happening to the Palestinians. Christians, in particular, are useful to what's going on right now.
And now Russia's basically starting to do the same thing to the Ukraine, and there's a lot of useful idiots in America and other countries that are buying into anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
The difference is is that since Ukraine isn't filled with brown people, and they don't belong to a religion that is attributed to terrorism, the wrongs against them are far more well documented.
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Magus's internet is on the fritz, so none of his posts are really getting through at the moment. Pasting this on his behalf:
You ask me to define "supporting him" then essentially defined it in the next sentence. Thank you.
But to further define it, I mean the fact that America basically throws money and support at Israel, and we've got entire crowds of people all over the world supporting everything happening to the Palestinians. Christians, in particular, are useful to what's going on right now.
And now Russia's basically starting to do the same thing to the Ukraine, and there's a lot of useful idiots in America and other countries that are buying into anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
The difference is is that since Ukraine isn't filled with brown people, and they don't belong to a religion that is attributed to terrorism, the wrongs against them are far more well documented.
The difference is that Ukraine isn't run by terrorists, hasn't been firing rockets into Russian territory, and doesn't want to wipe Russia off the map.
I have no idea how you can think the two situations are remotely comparable. If anything, you're the useful idiots.
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Magus's internet is on the fritz, so none of his posts are really getting through at the moment. Pasting this on his behalf:
You ask me to define "supporting him" then essentially defined it in the next sentence. Thank you.
But to further define it, I mean the fact that America basically throws money and support at Israel, and we've got entire crowds of people all over the world supporting everything happening to the Palestinians. Christians, in particular, are useful to what's going on right now.
And now Russia's basically starting to do the same thing to the Ukraine, and there's a lot of useful idiots in America and other countries that are buying into anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
The difference is is that since Ukraine isn't filled with brown people, and they don't belong to a religion that is attributed to terrorism, the wrongs against them are far more well documented.
The difference is that Ukraine isn't run by terrorists, hasn't been firing rockets into Russian territory, and doesn't want to wipe Russia off the map.
I have no idea how you can think the two situations are remotely comparable. If anything, you're the useful idiots.
And Israel has successfully achieved the denial of a Palestinian state.
That reminded me of this article, which I find particularly relevant here: Palestinians live what Israelis fear (http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/08/20/palestinians-live-what-israelis-fear/)
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Magus's internet is on the fritz, so none of his posts are really getting through at the moment. Pasting this on his behalf:
You ask me to define "supporting him" then essentially defined it in the next sentence. Thank you.
But to further define it, I mean the fact that America basically throws money and support at Israel, and we've got entire crowds of people all over the world supporting everything happening to the Palestinians. Christians, in particular, are useful to what's going on right now.
And now Russia's basically starting to do the same thing to the Ukraine, and there's a lot of useful idiots in America and other countries that are buying into anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
The difference is is that since Ukraine isn't filled with brown people, and they don't belong to a religion that is attributed to terrorism, the wrongs against them are far more well documented.
The difference is that Ukraine isn't run by terrorists, hasn't been firing rockets into Russian territory, and doesn't want to wipe Russia off the map.
I have no idea how you can think the two situations are remotely comparable. If anything, you're the useful idiots.
And Israel has successfully achieved the denial of a Palestinian state.
That reminded me of this article, which I find particularly relevant here: Palestinians live what Israelis fear (http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/08/20/palestinians-live-what-israelis-fear/)
Boom.
Also I don't recall calling you a useful idiot, Ultimate Paragon. So your insult was unwarranted and unfounded.
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Magus's internet is on the fritz, so none of his posts are really getting through at the moment. Pasting this on his behalf:
You ask me to define "supporting him" then essentially defined it in the next sentence. Thank you.
But to further define it, I mean the fact that America basically throws money and support at Israel, and we've got entire crowds of people all over the world supporting everything happening to the Palestinians. Christians, in particular, are useful to what's going on right now.
And now Russia's basically starting to do the same thing to the Ukraine, and there's a lot of useful idiots in America and other countries that are buying into anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
The difference is is that since Ukraine isn't filled with brown people, and they don't belong to a religion that is attributed to terrorism, the wrongs against them are far more well documented.
The difference is that Ukraine isn't run by terrorists, hasn't been firing rockets into Russian territory, and doesn't want to wipe Russia off the map.
I have no idea how you can think the two situations are remotely comparable. If anything, you're the useful idiots.
And Israel has successfully achieved the denial of a Palestinian state.
That reminded me of this article, which I find particularly relevant here: Palestinians live what Israelis fear (http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/08/20/palestinians-live-what-israelis-fear/)
Boom.
Also I don't recall calling you a useful idiot, Ultimate Paragon. So your insult was unwarranted and unfounded.
Well, you didn't say it, but it seems like you were implying it.
Also, I agree, Israeli has done wrong. But Hamas must take the lion's share of the blame for what is happening. After Israel and Fatah worked so hard to dig the well of peace, they poisoned it by taking over Gaza through force. Israel is responding to provocations. I agree, the response is disproportionate at times. However, that doesn't make what Hamas is doing right.
Hamas is the problem. They don't want peace, they want domination. They have always wanted domination. They want to eliminate Israel and any Palestinians who disagree with them, and set up a brutal Islamic theocracy. Before there can be a lasting peace, Hamas must either change its ways or go away.
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Hamas wants domination. Israel already has domination. Hamas wants to eliminate Israel and any Palestinians who disagree with them. Israel's eliminated Palestine and are eliminating Palestinians regardless of agreement or not.
Read the fucking article. Understand it. Hamas is evil. But Netanyu and the IDF are worse. That is why THEY deserve the lion's share of the blame.
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Hamas wants domination. Israel already has domination. Hamas wants to eliminate Israel and any Palestinians who disagree with them. Israel's eliminated Palestine and are eliminating Palestinians regardless of agreement or not.
Read the fucking article. Understand it. Hamas is evil. But Netanyu and the IDF are worse. That is why THEY deserve the lion's share of the blame.
Ad hominem all you like, but the fact remains that Hamas has repeatedly violated ceasefire agreements. Besides, they're the root cause of this mess. If they hadn't seized power in Gaza, none of this would have happened.
And for all you claim to dislike Hamas, you seem to love making excuses for them.
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Relaying for Magus again:
What ad hominem? Where?
The only one I see is the one you're making towards me.
How about you read the fucking article?
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Relaying for Magus again:
What ad hominem? Where?
The only one I see is the one you're making towards me.
How about you read the fucking article?
The article raises some good points, but I find it flawed. It drops a lot of the conflict's context, it claims Israel is a safe country even while rockets are being fired from Gaza, and it ignores the deep, deep flaws in all too much of Palestinian society.
Also, Cerim, what are your thoughts?
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Me personally? I think there's fuckwits on both sides. That being said, Israel has the firepower advantage so fucking many times over it's downright unfair.
My stance on this is much like my stance on politicians and media types (Limbaugh and Dawkins, for example) that bitch about the other side. Lock everyone who really wants to fucking fight and kill the other side in a room, give them equal weapons, let them all fucking kill each other. Then kill whoever's left. Problem motherfucking solved, the rational folks on both sides can now move on and the world doesn't have to put up with their bullshit anymore.
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Me personally? I think there's fuckwits on both sides. That being said, Israel has the firepower advantage so fucking many times over it's downright unfair.
My stance on this is much like my stance on politicians and media types (Limbaugh and Dawkins, for example) that bitch about the other side. Lock everyone who really wants to fucking fight and kill the other side in a room, give them equal weapons, let them all fucking kill each other. Then kill whoever's left. Problem motherfucking solved, the rational folks on both sides can now move on and the world doesn't have to put up with their bullshit anymore.
I wouldn't mind that solution.
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I guess, for me personally, it comes down to "Yeah, we really SHOULD all be able to get along, and work out our differences reasonably. We shouldn't be using political clout to kneecap the other side, or the barrel of a gun to threaten someone we disagree with into silence because we don't like their views."
Take North Korea. Pwn the fuck out of Kim and his military shitbrains, and then give the civilians enough food that they're never going to go hungry again, and never fear that speaking out will kill the entire family line, and educate them so that things will be better and easier for the next generation.
Pie in the sky, total blind optimism. I know. I've also been told 'humanity needs conflict', but we have enough bullshit in our lives that being scared of the guy across the street that maybe speaks in a funny accent or looks different or believes in a different god or even no deity at all, should not *ever* be one of them.
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I don't get it. I really don't. Israel has killed countless Palestinian kids and the world doesn't bat an eye. Or rather it screams on high about how Israel needs to stop without doing anything to stop them. One Israeli kid dies and suddenly it'll intensify the conflict? How?
Ironbite-actual ground invasion instead of bombing runs?
Maybe they will just start being honest abut targeting civilians and tell the Palestinians "if you don't like it stop lobbing rockets at us (P.S. Leave!)."
(P.S.S. We won't let you leave!)
The border blockade is the most ridiculous aspect of this whole campaign. Something tells me Israel's populace would also become desperate if their neighbors colluded to block any travel or exchange of goods.
Difference is, Israel hasn't been taken over by religiously fanatical terrorists.
Israel our home are basically fascists, in the old Stern Gang/Yitzak Shamir style
Magus's internet is on the fritz, so none of his posts are really getting through at the moment. Pasting this on his behalf:
You ask me to define "supporting him" then essentially defined it in the next sentence. Thank you.
But to further define it, I mean the fact that America basically throws money and support at Israel, and we've got entire crowds of people all over the world supporting everything happening to the Palestinians. Christians, in particular, are useful to what's going on right now.
And now Russia's basically starting to do the same thing to the Ukraine, and there's a lot of useful idiots in America and other countries that are buying into anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
The difference is is that since Ukraine isn't filled with brown people, and they don't belong to a religion that is attributed to terrorism, the wrongs against them are far more well documented.
The difference is that Ukraine isn't run by terrorists, hasn't been firing rockets into Russian territory, and doesn't want to wipe Russia off the map.
I have no idea how you can think the two situations are remotely comparable. If anything, you're the useful idiots.
You absolutely cannot justify a war of aggression on the grounds that the opposition are big meanies. You have no right to murder children because, you think, their parents would do the .
Note that you personally share moral responsibility for this murderous ethnic cleansing that you firmly support.
Hamas wants domination. Israel already has domination. Hamas wants to eliminate Israel and any Palestinians who disagree with them. Israel's eliminated Palestine and are eliminating Palestinians regardless of agreement or not.
Read the fucking article. Understand it. Hamas is evil. But Netanyu and the IDF are worse. That is why THEY deserve the lion's share of the blame.
Ad hominem all you like, but the fact remains that Hamas has repeatedly violated ceasefire agreements. Besides, they're the root cause of this mess. If they hadn't seized power in Gaza, none of this would have happened.
And for all you claim to dislike Hamas, you seem to love making excuses for them.
Complete nonsense. The conflict would end tomorrow if Israel wanted it to. Hamas has violated some ceasefire agreements - usually after lengthy provocation; Israel has yet to honour a single ceasefire agreement with Palestinians ever. For example, the 2009 war followed years of peace. Hamas obsessively enforced a rocket halt, as it was required to do, and rocket fire ended. Meanwhile, Israel maintained its criminal blockade in violation of the agreement (later the IDF murdered a number of Turks attempting to bring aid to starving Palestinians who had been denied it by the criminal Israeli government). In 2008, Hamas offered a long-standing truce; Israel started bombing. Hamas got all the blame for the conflict.
As for your other claim - that Hamas is the root cause of the conflict - you're just lying. The root cause is Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory. Indeed, it is an advantage to Israel if Hamas appears or is in fact extremist. This war, for instance, began as a response to Hamas' frustrating settlement with Fatah, which was a threat to Israel's international standing. If the Palestinians are peacefully, reasonably demanding an end to the conflict and the Israelis reject their offer, Israel will eventually lose international support and be forced to accept peace. Can't have that - we have to create extremism to justify our annexation. How? Bombing.
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Israel our home are basically fascists, in the old Stern Gang/Yitzak Shamir style
You can call it fascism all you like, but that doesn't make it so.
You absolutely cannot justify a war of aggression on the grounds that the opposition are big meanies. You have no right to murder children because, you think, their parents would do the .
Note that you personally share moral responsibility for this murderous ethnic cleansing that you firmly support.
Hamas has done far worse than "be big meanies". And it's not ethnic cleansing. It's a human rights issue, certainly, but calling it ethnic cleansing is hyperbole.
Complete nonsense. The conflict would end tomorrow if Israel wanted it to. Hamas has violated some ceasefire agreements - usually after lengthy provocation; Israel has yet to honour a single ceasefire agreement with Palestinians ever. For example, the 2009 war followed years of peace. Hamas obsessively enforced a rocket halt, as it was required to do, and rocket fire ended. Meanwhile, Israel maintained its criminal blockade in violation of the agreement (later the IDF murdered a number of Turks attempting to bring aid to starving Palestinians who had been denied it by the criminal Israeli government). In 2008, Hamas offered a long-standing truce; Israel started bombing. Hamas got all the blame for the conflict.
As for your other claim - that Hamas is the root cause of the conflict - you're just lying. The root cause is Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory. Indeed, it is an advantage to Israel if Hamas appears or is in fact extremist. This war, for instance, began as a response to Hamas' frustrating settlement with Fatah, which was a threat to Israel's international standing. If the Palestinians are peacefully, reasonably demanding an end to the conflict and the Israelis reject their offer, Israel will eventually lose international support and be forced to accept peace. Can't have that - we have to create extremism to justify our annexation. How? Bombing.
Are you completely out of touch with reality?
1. The conflict began before the blockade, what makes you think it would end if Israel lifts it?
2. Hamas did not enforce a rocket halt. The fire slowed, sure, but it was still there.
3. What I mean to say is that in 2005, there was legitimate hope for peace. Israel had pulled out of Gaza, and was planning to do the same for the West Bank. Then Hamas took power. The fact that they were elected does not make them any less of an existential threat to Israel. Plenty of horrible people and factions have been elected, and elected fairly, at least at first. And I'm pretty sure they had some kind of agenda to get rid of both Israel and Fatah.
4. If anything, Hamas are the conniving ones. Their "us or them" mentality with regards to Israel has led to them repeatedly provoking Israel and then crying foul when they retaliate. Yes, the Israeli response is sometimes disproportionate, but that doesn't excuse Hamas's actions. The fact is, they're trying to turn Israel extremist, or at least make it seem extremist. They corrupt Israelis and Palestinians at the same time. Their cunning would be almost admirable if they weren't so loathsome.
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You've got it backwards. It's Hamas' actions that don't excuse Israeli's actions.
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Israel our home are basically fascists, in the old Stern Gang/Yitzak Shamir style
You can call it fascism all you like, but that doesn't make it so.
Matter of opinion, I guess.
You absolutely cannot justify a war of aggression on the grounds that the opposition are big meanies. You have no right to murder children because, you think, their parents would do the .
Note that you personally share moral responsibility for this murderous ethnic cleansing that you firmly support.
Hamas has done far worse than "be big meanies". And it's not ethnic cleansing. It's a human rights issue, certainly, but calling it ethnic cleansing is hyperbole.
No, that's essentially your position. Hamas has committed thought-crimes, and would do XYZ nasty thing if given the chance. Therefore, a war of aggression is justified. This war, of course, will not make those acts less likely - indeed it will make them more so. Nonetheless, Hamas is mean in the abstract, so we must bomb nearby hospitals and schools and steal their country.
Complete nonsense. The conflict would end tomorrow if Israel wanted it to. Hamas has violated some ceasefire agreements - usually after lengthy provocation; Israel has yet to honour a single ceasefire agreement with Palestinians ever. For example, the 2009 war followed years of peace. Hamas obsessively enforced a rocket halt, as it was required to do, and rocket fire ended. Meanwhile, Israel maintained its criminal blockade in violation of the agreement (later the IDF murdered a number of Turks attempting to bring aid to starving Palestinians who had been denied it by the criminal Israeli government). In 2008, Hamas offered a long-standing truce; Israel started bombing. Hamas got all the blame for the conflict.
As for your other claim - that Hamas is the root cause of the conflict - you're just lying. The root cause is Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory. Indeed, it is an advantage to Israel if Hamas appears or is in fact extremist. This war, for instance, began as a response to Hamas' frustrating settlement with Fatah, which was a threat to Israel's international standing. If the Palestinians are peacefully, reasonably demanding an end to the conflict and the Israelis reject their offer, Israel will eventually lose international support and be forced to accept peace. Can't have that - we have to create extremism to justify our annexation. How? Bombing.
Are you completely out of touch with reality?
1. The conflict began before the blockade, what makes you think it would end if Israel lifts it?
Indeed. The conflict began as a result of Israel's occupation of the West Bank. It will end the day Israel is willing to give up that conquest and not one moment before, as would any other war of colonial aggression.
2. Hamas did not enforce a rocket halt. The fire slowed, sure, but it was still there.
Firmly and fanatically enforced. Israel systematically violated the agreement, of course with your strong moral complicity.
3. What I mean to say is that in 2005, there was legitimate hope for peace. Israel had pulled out of Gaza, and was planning to do the same for the West Bank.
Then it chose not to and the conflict continued. That was nobody's decision but Israel's and the resulting war nobody's fault but Israel's.
Then Hamas took power were elected. The fact that they were elected does not make them any less of an existential threat to Israel.
Hamas is as much an existential threat to the Israeli state as the Indian National Congress were to the British one. This is a joke.
In any case, your private opinion is no basis for public policy - and, even if Hamas were an actual military force, ending the conflict would destroy them and end that threat.
4. If anything, Hamas are the conniving ones. Their "us or them" mentality with regards to Israel has led to them repeatedly provoking Israel and then crying foul when they retaliate.
For instance, in 2009 Hamas chose to provoke Israel's attack by offering a long-term peace settlement, supported by every Arab state in the region. This was a drastic threat to the Israeli state in Palestine, and might well have defeated it. In 2014, Hamas again provoked Israeli attack by ending internecine conflict with Fatah, agreeing to a unified non-violent peace offensive and creating an enormous threat to Israel's settlement program. The IDF had no choice but to force Hamas away from the negotiating table. In both cases, Hamas acted extremely deviously is pursuing peace - while Israel was transparently acting in defence of their ethnic cleansing program. Loathsome cunning!
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Best part of this argument?
Ironbite-I got UP and Lt. Fred on ignore so Magnus looks like he's arguing with himself.
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It IS rather a trainwreck if you could see the whole fight, Ibby. It's impressive.
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That I agree.
Ironbite-but it's much more amusing this way.
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It IS rather a trainwreck if you could see the whole fight, Ibby. It's impressive.
I have a lot more respect for Ultimate Paragon's position than yours. At least he gives a shit, or doesn't have active contempt for people who care about others. Seriously, this is highly offensive of you.
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You find MY position offensive, Fred? Me, who desires peace, who thinks that all the idiots should just duke it out and let the reasonable folks actually have civil discourse?
Huh. Interesting stance you take. I'll keep that in mind.
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You find MY position offensive, Fred? Me, who desires peace, who thinks that all the idiots should just duke it out and let the reasonable folks actually have civil discourse?
Huh. Interesting stance you take. I'll keep that in mind.
Oh, you actually care about the conflict? That's a surprise. What would be the "trainwreck" then?
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You find MY position offensive, Fred? Me, who desires peace, who thinks that all the idiots should just duke it out and let the reasonable folks actually have civil discourse?
Huh. Interesting stance you take. I'll keep that in mind.
Oh, you actually care about the conflict? That's a surprise. What would be the "trainwreck" then?
Wait, do you think he's talking about the Israel/Gaza conflict? I'm pretty sure the trainwreck he's talking about is the fight going on in this thread, between you, Magus, and UP.
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You find MY position offensive, Fred? Me, who desires peace, who thinks that all the idiots should just duke it out and let the reasonable folks actually have civil discourse?
Huh. Interesting stance you take. I'll keep that in mind.
Oh, you actually care about the conflict? That's a surprise. What would be the "trainwreck" then?
Wait, do you think he's talking about the Israel/Gaza conflict? I'm pretty sure the trainwreck he's talking about is the fight going on in this thread, between you, Magus, and UP.
Is it a trainwreck because we disagree with him, or is it a trainwreck because we care at all? It's either that he's Jesus or the conflict doesn't matter, as far as I can see.
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...What the fuck?
Why are those the only two options?
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We keep hearing about all these things Hamas "would do, if they had the chance". Considering that Israel does all of these things right now, the evidence is pretty clear that Israel is at least as bad, if not worse, than Hamas. Especially since I don't think anyone, not even the most rabidly anti-Israeli people, plan on giving Hamas the chance to do all these things.
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You find MY position offensive, Fred? Me, who desires peace, who thinks that all the idiots should just duke it out and let the reasonable folks actually have civil discourse?
Huh. Interesting stance you take. I'll keep that in mind.
Oh, you actually care about the conflict? That's a surprise. What would be the "trainwreck" then?
Wait, do you think he's talking about the Israel/Gaza conflict? I'm pretty sure the trainwreck he's talking about is the fight going on in this thread, between you, Magus, and UP.
Is it a trainwreck because we disagree with him, or is it a trainwreck because we care at all? It's either that he's Jesus or the conflict doesn't matter, as far as I can see.
Nooooo no no no, the trainwreck is the fight going on between you, Magus and UP. I'm just sitting here enjoying the carnage. My opinion on the conflict amounts to my above "lock all the idiots that want to fight in a room, kill each other, then kill whoever's left, so the rest of the world can move the fuck on" post.
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It IS rather a trainwreck if you could see the whole fight, Ibby. It's impressive.
I have a lot more respect for Ultimate Paragon's position than yours. At least he gives a shit, or doesn't have active contempt for people who care about others. Seriously, this is highly offensive of you.
Me and Mr. Glocky (Who is now located in Ironchew's intestinal tract) agree.
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Just as a point to the ethnic cleansing comment. Ethnic cleansing does not simply mean to kill off a particular ethnic group, it can also refer to forcing a particular ethnic group out of one area, traditionally which has been the home to that ethnic group.
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Just as a point to the ethnic cleansing comment. Ethnic cleansing does not simply mean to kill off a particular ethnic group, it can also refer to forcing a particular ethnic group out of one area, traditionally which has been the home to that ethnic group.
Israel is mini-Bosnia.
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I present to you, the rubble bucket challenge, because this is what it takes to make people give a shit these days...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zqnxme3GSc
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Now shit like this (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/31/israel-west-bank-land-settlement-_n_5744642.html?utm_hp_ref=canada&ir=Canada) is why people think that Israel is being the asshole. The bodies aren't even cold yet and the fuckers go out of their way to deliberately antagonize and collectively punish the Palestinians:
The decision to seize the land is reported to have been made shortly after the event that sparked the conflict, the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers.
The settlements council in Gevaot said: "It paves the way for the new city of Gevaot.
"The goal of the murderers of those three youths was to sow fear among us, to disrupt our daily lives and to call into doubt our right to the land. Our response is to strengthen settlement."
Roughly translated: "we can do whatever we want and you are powerless to stop us so shut up and go sit in your corner the corner we let you use for now or next time the beating will be much worse."
Fuck you Israel. Your nation has the morality of an abusive parent/spouse and you are well deserving of all the hate and comparisons to Hitler you get.
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I agree, the Israeli government's going too far, and their response is all wrong. But comparing them to Hitler? Sorry, but until Palestinians are being forced into death camps, I'm going to have to call that a monstrous exaggeration.
Besides, here's what Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas has to say about Hamas:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/16/mahmoud-abbas-abduction-israeli-teens_n_5498007.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/16/mahmoud-abbas-abduction-israeli-teens_n_5498007.html)
http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-leader-hamas-caused-prolonged-war-142407698.html (http://news.yahoo.com/palestinian-leader-hamas-caused-prolonged-war-142407698.html)
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How far does UP have his head up his ass about Israel? Just how atrocious do their war crimes have to be to finally force him to condemn them unconditionally? We may never know.
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Why do I get the distinct impression that if things became openly genocidal you would still decry it as a 'monstrous exaggeration' since Israel could only kill at most 2.5 million to Hitlers 6 million, and besides, the Palestinians have the gall to actually fight so it would be self defense. ::)
Hitler used racism/nationalism, the victimization of the German people under the treaty of Versailles, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of the Aryan race to subjugate and eventually try to eliminate the Jews.
Israel is using racism/nationalism, the victimization of the Jewish people under Hitler, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of God's chosen people to subjugate the Palestinians.
They're already at the point of denying them basic rights, jamming them into ghettos that lack proper servicing, walling them in, and collectively punishing them... which sounds a lot like Warsaw circa 1941. The only thing Israel hasn't done yet is start a wholesale extermination program.
The comparisons are more than valid. You just need to set aside you preconceived notions about who the good guys and bad guys are and look.
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Why do I get the distinct impression that if things became openly genocidal you would still decry it as a 'monstrous exaggeration' since Israel could only kill at most 2.5 million to Hitlers 6 million, and besides, the Palestinians have the gall to actually fight so it would be self defense. ::)
Hitler used racism/nationalism, the victimization of the German people under the treaty of Versailles, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of the Aryan race to subjugate and eventually try to eliminate the Jews.
Israel is using racism/nationalism, the victimization of the Jewish people under Hitler, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of God's chosen people to subjugate the Palestinians.
They're already at the point of denying them basic rights, jamming them into ghettos that lack proper servicing, walling them in, and collectively punishing them... which sounds a lot like Warsaw circa 1941. The only thing Israel hasn't done yet is start a wholesale extermination program.
The comparisons are more than valid. You just need to set aside you preconceived notions about who the good guys and bad guys are and look.
1. Plenty of other Middle Eastern nations mistreat the Palestinians. Why aren't you holding them to the same standards?
2. Funny, I don't remember the Jews ever committing terrorist attacks against Germany, calling for the destruction of the German state, or threatening to wipe out the German people.
3. Between 1948 and 2001, somewhere from 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews left the various Arab and Islamic countries and moved to Israel, which is more than the number of Arabs who left Israel during that same time period. Why aren't you accusing them of "ethnic cleansing"?
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1. Plenty of other Middle Eastern nations mistreat the Palestinians. Why aren't you holding them to the same standards?
2. Funny, I don't remember the Jews ever committing terrorist attacks against Germany, calling for the destruction of the German state, or threatening to wipe out the German people.
3. Between 1948 and 2001, somewhere from 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews left the various Arab and Islamic countries and moved to Israel, which is more than the number of Arabs who left Israel during that same time period. Why aren't you accusing them of "ethnic cleansing"?
1. Because they haven't violently chased the Palestinians away from their homes and then attacked / organized attacks to slaughter them in refugee camps. While the Arab nations aren't completely innocent since they have used the Palestinians as pawns in their political games against Israel that doesn't come even close to what Israel has done and is still doing.
2. If the rest of the world had just stood by and let the Nazis treat the Jews as subhumans for decades I guarantee you that the situation would have been different.
3. Are you claiming these Jews escaped an organized campaign of violence?
You are grasping to some really fucking thin straws here.
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I've never seen someone so vehemently and unwaveringly defend the utterly indefensible before.
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Why do I get the distinct impression that if things became openly genocidal you would still decry it as a 'monstrous exaggeration' since Israel could only kill at most 2.5 million to Hitlers 6 million, and besides, the Palestinians have the gall to actually fight so it would be self defense. ::)
Hitler used racism/nationalism, the victimization of the German people under the treaty of Versailles, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of the Aryan race to subjugate and eventually try to eliminate the Jews.
Israel is using racism/nationalism, the victimization of the Jewish people under Hitler, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of God's chosen people to subjugate the Palestinians.
They're already at the point of denying them basic rights, jamming them into ghettos that lack proper servicing, walling them in, and collectively punishing them... which sounds a lot like Warsaw circa 1941. The only thing Israel hasn't done yet is start a wholesale extermination program.
The comparisons are more than valid. You just need to set aside you preconceived notions about who the good guys and bad guys are and look.
1. Plenty of other Middle Eastern nations mistreat the Palestinians. Why aren't you holding them to the same standards?
2. Funny, I don't remember the Jews ever committing terrorist attacks against Germany, calling for the destruction of the German state, or threatening to wipe out the German people.
3. Between 1948 and 2001, somewhere from 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews left the various Arab and Islamic countries and moved to Israel, which is more than the number of Arabs who left Israel during that same time period. Why aren't you accusing them of "ethnic cleansing"?
This is your defense?
Other people are worse so we should excuse Israel its atrocities. That's not acceptable to you for your personal pet causes, nor should it be, so why does it fly now?
What's even worse is that they are not even very good points.
Jordan Syria and Lebanon, have the highest populations of Palestinians outside of Israel (in the region). Jordan renounced their claims to the West Bank and let the PLO take control of the area. Syria and Lebanon are home to displaced populations who would probably go home if they had a home to go to. As refugees, the Palestinians might not be treated well, but guess what, that wouldn't be an issue if they weren't refugees in foreign countries thanks to Israel to begin with.
The Jews in Warsaw were surrounded by a military force and lacked any potential civilian targets unless they wanted to kill their own non-Jewish countrymen living outside the wire who were also suffering under the German yoke so the fact that they never attacked any is largely moot.
Israel has a Right of Return law that automatically grants citizenship to Jews, a democratic political system favorable (biased) towards Jewish people, a very high standard of living, the safety of an unmatched military and powerful allies, a colonization policy to provide land to immigrants, and the Jewish people have a demonstrated history of forming enclaves and homogeneous communities. Only a million showed up in 53 years after how many major wars, civil wars, and uprisings in the region? Wow, what a damning number.
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1. Don't you remember when Palestinians fled from Kuwait during and after the Gulf War? Or them being driven from Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein? Or how about al-Assad using the Syrian Civil War as an excuse to mistreat Palestinian refugees?
2. In that scenario, there wouldn't be any Jews in Europe.
3. I'm not just claiming that, it's documented fact.
I've never seen someone so vehemently and unwaveringly defend the utterly indefensible before.
I'm not defending this, I'm just trying to bring in some perspective.
Why do I get the distinct impression that if things became openly genocidal you would still decry it as a 'monstrous exaggeration' since Israel could only kill at most 2.5 million to Hitlers 6 million, and besides, the Palestinians have the gall to actually fight so it would be self defense. ::)
Hitler used racism/nationalism, the victimization of the German people under the treaty of Versailles, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of the Aryan race to subjugate and eventually try to eliminate the Jews.
Israel is using racism/nationalism, the victimization of the Jewish people under Hitler, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of God's chosen people to subjugate the Palestinians.
They're already at the point of denying them basic rights, jamming them into ghettos that lack proper servicing, walling them in, and collectively punishing them... which sounds a lot like Warsaw circa 1941. The only thing Israel hasn't done yet is start a wholesale extermination program.
The comparisons are more than valid. You just need to set aside you preconceived notions about who the good guys and bad guys are and look.
1. Plenty of other Middle Eastern nations mistreat the Palestinians. Why aren't you holding them to the same standards?
2. Funny, I don't remember the Jews ever committing terrorist attacks against Germany, calling for the destruction of the German state, or threatening to wipe out the German people.
3. Between 1948 and 2001, somewhere from 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews left the various Arab and Islamic countries and moved to Israel, which is more than the number of Arabs who left Israel during that same time period. Why aren't you accusing them of "ethnic cleansing"?
This is your defense?
Other people are worse so we should excuse Israel its atrocities. That's not acceptable to you for your personal pet causes, nor should it be, so why does it fly now?
What's even worse is that they are not even very good points.
Jordan Syria and Lebanon, have the highest populations of Palestinians outside of Israel (in the region). Jordan renounced their claims to the West Bank and let the PLO take control of the area. Syria and Lebanon are home to displaced populations who would probably go home if they had a home to go to. As refugees, the Palestinians might not be treated well, but guess what, that wouldn't be an issue if they weren't refugees in foreign countries thanks to Israel to begin with.
The Jews in Warsaw were surrounded by a military force and lacked any potential civilian targets unless they wanted to kill their own non-Jewish countrymen living outside the wire who were also suffering under the German yoke so the fact that they never attacked any is largely moot.
Israel has a Right of Return law that automatically grants citizenship to Jews, a democratic political system favorable (biased) towards Jewish people, a very high standard of living, the safety of an unmatched military and powerful allies, a colonization policy to provide land to immigrants, and the Jewish people have a demonstrated history of forming enclaves and homogeneous communities. Only a million showed up in 53 years after how many major wars, civil wars, and uprisings in the region? Wow, what a damning number.
There is so much wrong in that statement, I don't know where to begin.
1. I'm not trying to excuse Israel, I'm merely attacking a double standard.
2. Your points suck too. Did Israel force them to discriminate against Palestinians?
3. You've got the cause and effect mixed up. The blockade of Gaza happened as a result of Hamas rocket attacks, not the other way around. I don't like the blockade either, but there's a huge difference between it and the Warsaw Ghetto.
4. There's a lot of historical context you seem to be missing. The Right of Return is an attempt to prevent another Holocaust. The Jew-friendly government is the obvious result of a Israel being a Jewish country.
And Israel's military isn't so unmatched. After all, Hezbollah was able to go toe-to-toe with them. Besides, the primary reason Israel's military is so powerful is because it was surrounded by neighbors who loathed it. As for their "friends in high places"? There are a lot of complicated factors that go into it, such as the Cold War.
And why are you talking about their history of "enclaves and homogenous communities"? Just about every group has a history of doing that. And honestly, bringing it up makes you sound like an anti-Semite. After all, the whole "they won't assimilate" line has been an anti-Semitic canard for millennia. I'm not saying you are one, it's just something to keep in mind.
Your "only one million" comment ignores the fact that the Jews have never had a very large population. There are more Arab Christians than there are Jews. To put it another way, the Jewish population in the Arab Middle East and North Africa has decreased from 900,000 in 1948 to less than 8,000 in 2001.
I will, however, concede your point about colonization. The Palestinians deserve a homeland of their own and Israel needs to stop its settlements in the West Bank.
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And why are you talking about their history of "enclaves and homogenous communities"? Just about every group has a history of doing that. And honestly, bringing it up makes you sound like an anti-Semite. After all, the whole "they won't assimilate" line has been an anti-Semitic canard for millennia. I'm not saying you are one, it's just something to keep in mind.
You like to read a whole lot of crap into that for something that is very straight forward. X likes to congregate in groups (just like A thru Z with the exceptions of P, Y, and J, but that is not germane to this discussion). A region is established for X and despite creating very favorable conditions to attract non-resident X, and it being much better than the surrounding area by any metric you choose to use, the amount of X attracted from those areas is not particularly large given the amount of time involved. This suggests that conditions for X in those areas are not particularly bad.
Happy now? I removed the offending word, just like earlier in this thread when I sacrificed accuracy for the sake of your feelings by replacing the word Lebensraum with manifest destiny.
Now, on a personal note, you came damn close to calling me an anti-Semite you little fuck. You skirt around it with the passive-aggressive 'I'm not calling you one but you sound like one' for saying something that as I have just demonstrated is a bullshit complaint on your part. I take serious offense to that. Perhaps a brief introduction to my to my grandparents and great-grandparents (http://db.yadvashem.org/righteous/family.html?language=en&itemId=4038914) and the men I'm named after and try to follow the examples of would shed some light on why. I would strongly recommend you refrain from inferring that again. It won't shut down the discussion, all it will do is shut down any possible pretense of civility between the two of us anywhere on this board.
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And why are you talking about their history of "enclaves and homogenous communities"? Just about every group has a history of doing that. And honestly, bringing it up makes you sound like an anti-Semite. After all, the whole "they won't assimilate" line has been an anti-Semitic canard for millennia. I'm not saying you are one, it's just something to keep in mind.
You like to read a whole lot of crap into that for something that is very straight forward. X likes to congregate in groups (just like A thru Z with the exceptions of P, Y, and J, but that is not germane to this discussion). A region is established for X and despite creating very favorable conditions to attract non-resident X, and it being much better than the surrounding area by any metric you choose to use, the amount of X attracted from those areas is not particularly large given the amount of time involved. This suggests that conditions for X in those areas are not particularly bad.
Happy now? I removed the offending word, just like earlier in this thread when I sacrificed accuracy for the sake of your feelings by replacing the word Lebensraum with manifest destiny.
Now, on a personal note, you came damn close to calling me an anti-Semite you little fuck. You skirt around it with the passive-aggressive 'I'm not calling you one but you sound like one' for saying something that as I have just demonstrated is a bullshit complaint on your part. I take serious offense to that. Perhaps a brief introduction to my to my grandparents and great-grandparents (http://db.yadvashem.org/righteous/family.html?language=en&itemId=4038914) and the men I'm named after and try to follow the examples of would shed some light on why. I would strongly recommend you refrain from inferring that again. It won't shut down the discussion, all it will do is shut down any possible pretense of civility between the two of us anywhere on this board.
I get it. I'm sorry I didn't understand what you were saying.
However, I must inform you that I was called an anti-Semite for even less reason. I was also accused of being racist for pointing out the obvious: that black people can be racist too.
And why are you bringing up what your ancestors did? I never said anything about them, I'm talking about you. In fact, how do I even know they're actually your ancestors?
And there was another territory created specifically as a homeland for refugees: Liberia. And you know what? Israel's track record is actually considerably better than its.
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Why do I get the distinct impression that if things became openly genocidal you would still decry it as a 'monstrous exaggeration' since Israel could only kill at most 2.5 million to Hitlers 6 million, and besides, the Palestinians have the gall to actually fight so it would be self defense. ::)
Hitler used racism/nationalism, the victimization of the German people under the treaty of Versailles, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of the Aryan race to subjugate and eventually try to eliminate the Jews.
Israel is using racism/nationalism, the victimization of the Jewish people under Hitler, and the 'historically backed' manifest destiny of God's chosen people to subjugate the Palestinians.
They're already at the point of denying them basic rights, jamming them into ghettos that lack proper servicing, walling them in, and collectively punishing them... which sounds a lot like Warsaw circa 1941. The only thing Israel hasn't done yet is start a wholesale extermination program.
The comparisons are more than valid. You just need to set aside you preconceived notions about who the good guys and bad guys are and look.
1. Plenty of other Middle Eastern nations mistreat the Palestinians. Why aren't you holding them to the same standards?
2. Funny, I don't remember the Jews ever committing terrorist attacks against Germany, calling for the destruction of the German state, or threatening to wipe out the German people.
3. Between 1948 and 2001, somewhere from 800,000 to 1,000,000 Jews left the various Arab and Islamic countries and moved to Israel, which is more than the number of Arabs who left Israel during that same time period. Why aren't you accusing them of "ethnic cleansing"?
Aside from Israel, no country on Earth has so flagrantly and wilfully violated international law by annexing the land of another people for so long. No Palestinian land has been stolen by any nation except Israel. No other country aside from Israel is fighting the war against Palestinians in defence of Israel's stolen land (which is the single, sole source of the conflict). The refugee crisis has been caused - deliberately - by the IDF. Arab states could, perhaps, have done a better job of adopting those refugees, but this is a second-order offence. Israel created the crisis and could end it tomorrow.
A number of Jews used violence against the Nazis, both the Wehrmact and German civilians. The Warsaw ghetto uprising is the best example. This was, of course, a reaction to earlier violence, as is Palestinian violence and terrorism. Obviously, reactionary violence ends when the provocation does - as it did upon the defeat of the Nazis and as it would upon an end to the occupation of Palestine. Israel has, of course, tried to justify its crimes by blaming the Palestinian resistance to them, obviously, but this is ludicrous. Israel would be far safer if it ended the occupation, as everyone knows.
The Arab population transfer was primarily voluntary. David Ben Gurion encouraged the exodus and was delighted when he was successful, as were other Israeli political leaders. Only to a degree can the exodus be attributed to a policy of ethnic cleansing on the part of the Moroccan and Iraqi governments (or people). This is another silly school yard deflection from the IDF.
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I wonder, also, whether Israel intends to honour the ceasefire agreement it signed? That is to say, was the Israeli government negotiating in good faith? After all, the Israelis have agreed to end their illegal blockade of Gaza in the past - in return for an end to rocket attacks - and violated their word.
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I wonder, also, whether Israel intends to honour the ceasefire agreement it signed? That is to say, was the Israeli government negotiating in good faith? After all, the Israelis have agreed to end their illegal blockade of Gaza in the past - in return for an end to rocket attacks - and violated their word.
I doubt it.
Lets face it, they dont give a damn about those rocket attacks, as they barely manage to do even structural damage. The rocket attacks are just an excuse to do whatever the hell they want to the Palestinian people. The blockade is their greatest bargaining chip as well as their source of power over the Palestinian people. They wont just give it up because of pathetic rocket attacks. Not while they can use it to further their expansionism into Palestinian territories.
Normally I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume stupidity or ineptitude instead of malice, but Israel is making that impossible. Back when Palestine was seeking recognition at the UN, Israel declared another round of settlements. Now, after barely reaching a ceasefire they declare another bunch? I swear its as if they want the war to continue, which they probably do seeing as it acts as justification for their slaughter of Palestinians as well as raises their own national pride and identity without any risk to themselves.
Not to mention that this whole "threat of Hamas rockets" acts as an excuse for them to push their borders ever forward into Palestine because of "security". One small note to remember in all of this, after more than a month of fighting. Less than 10 Israeli civilians were killed. A whole month of evil Hamas rocket attacks and devious Hamas tunnel attacks and they didn't even loose a civilian a day, as apposed to Palestine's 60+ people killed a day. Clearly Hamas is a grave threat to Israel.
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Last night, on the subject of Israel:
Me:"Israel is acting like a bunch of nazis!"
friend:"Don't say that! Israel is NOT socialist!"
... Cue beat, then grim laughter...
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http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/09/25/israel-was-tried-for-war-crimes-today-the-testimony-will-break-your-heart/
“16 yr old boy stripped naked and used as human shield by Israel for 5 days. He was denied food, water and sleep – and mentally and physically abused, including lashed with a wire across his back. Israeli army stopped a family car near a West Bank protest over Gaza. Positioned their weapons in the windows of back doors, where toddlers were sitting and began to fire on protest. This is not an isolated incident. There is a clear, recorded pattern of Israel using Palestinian children as human shields during attacks on Gaza.”
“One ambulance worker shot in the head and bled to death while fellow workers were told if they tried to assist him, they would be killed too. Another worker burned to death in his ambulance after a missile attack against it – his colleague was severely injured in the attack, left with life-altering burn injuries. We are talking about Gaza firefighters, police officers, ambulance workers and other emergency services workers being routinely shot at by snipers and missiles by Israeli military. Anyone who knows anything about Palestinian society knows that no Palestinian would use a child or family as a human shield. Israel however routinely used Palestinians as human shields throughout this operation and those prior.”
There's a lot more testimonies on the page proper.
Let's see you try to justify this, Nemo, Ultimate Paragon.
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I'm not even going to try to justify that. It's horrible.
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My god. I knew it was bad...but...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0a3fg-fUWdw/T3On8vGgmVI/AAAAAAAAA4A/PJg-1gRMH5Y/s200/bunk-the-wire.gif)
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Didn't think it could get any worse, but turns out I'm wrong again.
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Congratulations, I am completely speechless.